Knife defense techniques

[student]

I was on a lesson the other day, teaching knife defense techniques.
There are a lot of cases which I'm feeling you play too much with the aggressor, specially in this delicate situation in which he holds a knife.

I think that there are many jujitsu techniques that are far more practical.
Or as my old master used to say - "Never forget the II rule - this is the jungle, only the though survive".

[berador]

Hi Student, there are a few things i whould need to know in order to adress the questions you raise on Ninpo.

First one is that you start out;
[quote:2ff00b6eec="student"]
I was on a lesson the other day, teaching knife defense techniques.
[/quote:2ff00b6eec]
Which style was it?? Bujinkan, Genbukan, Jinenkan or other??

Also you say that you feel that;
[quote:2ff00b6eec="student"]
There are a lot of cases which I'm feeling you play too much with the aggressor, specially in this delicate situation in which he holds a knife.
[/quote:2ff00b6eec]
I gotta say on that account that it varies alot from the situation, but (in general) you neither 'play along' nor dominates (in the classical understanding). You merely follow the flow of the battle, and let the knife-wielding attacker bring about his own demise.


[quote:2ff00b6eec="student"]
I think that there are many jujitsu techniques that are far more practical.
Or as my old master used to say - "Never forget the II rule - this is the jungle, only the though survive".
[/quote:2ff00b6eec]
In some manner i could have agreed on this, but then again,,,,there'll allways be somebody else that's bigger / stronger / faster or tougher than you out there. The only thing you can rely on in that situation whould be to be well rounded in all aspects of your training. It is allways impossible to evaluate a system based on 1 lesson (when you started in school, you didn't learn to read the very first lesson. That didn't make you think school was useless, did it?) so i'd suggest that you took 1 or 2 more (if allowed by the teacher) and during that ask the teacher to explain the techniques to you ("why do you do this-'n-that, and not this-'n-this?").



Respectfully,

L.C.

[student]

Hi L.C.,

Just to have the all picture - I'm training for several years in Ju Jitsu and Karate Kempo and in the last two years I started training also in Ninjitsu (Bujinkan).

What I felt is related to the latest post on the self defence issues - in a real life and death situation you want to break whatever you can, as fast as you can, make the agressor think about his pain rather than your neck.

When I'm saying 'playing' I mean this - ok you've managed to stick to the aggressor's hand holding the knife, instead of using a beatiful technique of locking him through several phases, why not just kick the air out of him or break his hands/ribs/whatever-you-can with a shuto (like you break a brick)?

[berador]

if i sounded patronizing, that wasn't my intent. All styles are different in their approach, but i remember my own eagerness to get to "the good stuff" too. Imagine my surprise when i discovered that the good stuff is what you start out with. Remember that the learning-process goes 'Shu-Ha-Ri', even though it is a long and tiresome wait untill you get the advanced applications right. You gotta gie it time, and learn the basics well before 'playing' with the subtle differences that are thereby made possible in the applications (but i do have a 'sweet-spot' for Koppo-Jutsu myself, aswell as Kyusho, so i DO understand you :wink: :lol: ).



Respectfully,

L.C.

[student]

[quote:7ab349042e="berador"]if i sounded patronizing, that wasn't my intent[/quote:7ab349042e]
forget about it pal :-)

Anyway, what I wanted to say is that sometimes I feel that many of the techniques, specially the advanced ones, will have very little chance on the street.

[berador]

Well, i whouldn't quite say that :wink: . I used to work in something called 'Jomfru-ane gade' in Aalborg (Denmark) a couple of years ago, and had great use of my techniques. I know the majority of that kind of "Uke's" are drunk, but some are (unfortunately) on drugs too, which makes 'em quite dangerous (and unpredictable) opponents (guess i don't need to say that it was pretty good training sometimes :roll: ).



Respectfully,

L.C.

[student]

[quote:3e788105fa="berador"]I used to work in something called 'Jomfru-ane gade' in Aalborg (Denmark) a couple of years ago, and had great use of my techniques.[/quote:3e788105fa]
You don't know how valuable I find your information. I'm really missing some experience on the street, as very few people I know actually used it 'out of the lab'...

What kind of techniques did you find yourself using? Specially on the drugged fellows.

[berador]

It varied a lot what i did, but in general my favourite were to use jointlocks as a counter (as a 'doorman' you've got to let them go first, no preemptive strikes). I guess i'll have to find my camera and film some of the things in order to show you, as i think that's the easiest (unless you know the Henka well(?)).


Respectfully,

L.C.

[Senshido]

It is really important to try to trap the knife wielders arm under most circumstances.

[Nethvynn]

Jeez, its laughable. I sit here reading what people have put on this site about "going with the flow of the fight" and letting the assailant "lead himself to his own demise" and other poetic crap.

Have any of you actually been in a knife fight? Have any of you ever been in a gun fight? Have any of you ever seen real life combat?

I wish some of you wise cracking Martial Artists would actually join the forces. Get yourself sent to the Congo and go fight there, or Somalia, or even better do Merc work in South America then tell me about going with the flow.

I tell you this for free. In real fights Martial Artists lose. Why? Simple. They have rules, because most Martial Arts are taught as a sport. Trapping the knife I here someone say? OMG, so while your trapping the knife hand what about the other hand thats forcing a thumb into your eye socket? What about the teeth that have just been sunk into your nose and bitten it off? I tell you why Martial Artists lose is because they are not aggressive enough.

Someone who lives to fight whether he is a street brawler or a soldier, they are prepared to fight. They are experienced. They are trained one way or another to use the adrenaline, or use to it. They dont freeze. And the big thing here is they are prepared to do to you what you cant.

Let me put it another way. You are a martial artists training 3 times a week in some poncing art talking about which technique is best to disarm a knife. Well When you see a person with a knife, and your in a tight alley way with no where to go, no way out, then you will shit yourself. Adrenaline DUMP, and Shock! While you are frozen there thinking about what special move to do, the guy with the knife is going to be thrusting and slashing fast and hard. Not stand there with his hand out so you can trap it or play silly games like you do in class. He is wanting to hurt you bad, thats why he has a knife.

I got caught out clearing a small row of huts in the Congo. I turned round to see a teenager bearing down on me with a machete. I did not have time to fire. I managed to put my rifle between me and him. The blade glanced off and hit my hand opening my glove and the flesh to the bone. I hit the deck. Falling over my own feet. And do you know what saved me? My Corporal who filled the little bastard with lead. And yeah I do all kinds of Martial Arts. And I tell ya they did fuck all for me.

Tell me this, your strutting the streets in your home town feeling wise with your Martial Arts skills and a 12 year and several of his mates pull blades on you. What you gonna do other than run? Exactly.

I tell ya, take your wide boy ideas about knife fighting and fighting with weapons and shove em up your ass before someone else does.

[Henry]

Best defense's are simple and to defend against a knife you must first know how it's is used. Oh and yes I'm a Martial Artist who taught many of your Law Enforcement and Military DI's. You do know what a DI is don't you. There is a big difference in sport and real world. But a big mouth or bad tude never win's the fight. Regards Henry Childers

[Nethvynn]

WoW I stand in awe of you because you taught some DI some moves. But have you ever been involved in a real situation? Have you ever had someone try and stick 6 inches of steel into your guts? Have you ever been shot or wounded? You ever been on the street and had some 6'4" crack popping skinhead try to open you up for your wallet? And did you stand there like Steven Segal pulling off swish well practiced moves?

What I am saying has nothing to do with bad attitude or anything else. Simply talking about the reality of fighting with weapons which often mean someone dieing in the process.

Practicing MA is fine. Learning all the nice flowing moves, trapping, disarming etc is all fine. Until you are there for real and some one is really trying to put it in you.

Training a DI is easy mode. Try facing a teenager with a machete who wants to take your head off and stick it on a stick for his mates.

All I am saying is adrenaline dump, being wounded, shock etc are some serious considerations for anyone in the MA's world to take very seriously, and more often than not its the proper control of the adrenaline dump that will pull your ass out of a high stress situation. Not some fancy martial move seen in a Segal movie.

Anyone know what Tachypsychia is? if not read up and learn to adjust, control and use it.

[Henry]

No never been shot, but yes worked the streets of south central LA and theres plenty of action there. But nothing a good DI or a Good Police Officer hasn't faced. So there's no need to brag. General statements about Martial Artist are woefully uninformed and I think I detect just a bit of tude.
Regards Henry

[Nethvynn]

Not bragging, nor is there any attitude. I am asking simple realistic questions. Those people who taught me have seen realistic situations. The way I have been taught encompasses everything from tactical arousal control techniques (tact) to combat the negative side effects and inhibitive effects of adrenaline. Understanding the effects of Tachypsychia, the slowing down and speeding up of time with regards the effects of the adrenal dump. And taught techniques and mental attitude that have been streamed from the high stress situations encountered in war. What I am talking about (without attitude) is the development of ones mentality, the ability to realise a situation and complete the necessary actions to protect oneself and others.

If people want to know about Knife defense, the original point of the postings, then what I am suggesting is that you go to someone who can provide you with realistic scenario building. Who can train and teach you in TACT and Tactical Breathing, and someone who is or has a relative good knowledge of combat psychology.

Again what I have tried to express is the dire need to get rid of this wishy washy bullshit you see in Martial Arts classes where you see some muppet perform 17 types of arm break on someone who is content to hold their arm still that long. I am talking about someone grabbing you by the hair from behind and trying to shove a knife in your back, gripping you by the larynx and squeezing why they try to ram a knife inbetween your ribs.

Unfortunately I see it all the time in Martial Arts classes where folks practice long winded techniques on how to perform a knife disarm, performing all sorts of traps, disarms with the forearms and back of hands, disarms with Kerambits, and lots of really nice poetic looking stuff. All I am saying is, you can pretty much forget the flowery stuff.

When you have 240lbs of meat head bearing down on you with a blade, you need to be prepared to suck it in and put the guy in the ground the quickest way possible. Its all good when you 30 yards away and you got body armour and a Browning 9mm spitting hp rounds, but I would not want to be within 15 feet of someone with a Kerambit or even a Razor blade while I was trying to draw out my holster. By the time you drew your weapon you are looking at fatal wounds.

All I am saying is that Knife fighting is a very very bad ball game. Learning to play is not easy. Wanting to play and do what is necessary is even harder.

You see the thing is, what people dont realise, is that a good blade, used correctly has awesome stopping power. Slipped into the groin, the Kidney, under the diaphram, the armpit, between the 4th and 5th rib, the subclavian, the carotid or jugular or which ever your favourite snuff point might be, all I can say is humans bleed fast and this is never made clear in MA classes.

People should study bleed rates of arteries, understand that when they get slashed in certain places they have seconds before unconciousness sets in and not long after that they have lost so much blood they cant be revived. A good knife fighter should know exactly where to put the blade. Which tendons he is cutting, what vessels he is severing.

Rules of a knife fight for me go like this

1) Make sure you have space, use superior fire power.

2) Failing fire power, create space find an equalizer.

3) Hit to kill or maim.

4) Be more aggressive and have more intent than the attacker.

5) The will to survive is everything!!!

The thing is folks are always ready to talk about this technique and that technique and to express the fact their MA is misunderstood. But the reality is, in a knife fight there is always a winner and a loser. Just like any fight. Winning is about attitude, have the survivors attitude, someone who switches on when the adrenaline goes, someone who maintains their alertness and awareness, someone who uses the strength and agility they have in an aggressive asertive manner that puts their assailant on the back foot.

This is done by finding someone to train you who knows what the frek they are talking about, and not some wiseass MA whacko who has never done anything but Kumite in a ring with pads on. (not saying that you are, not saying what any of you have or havent done, I am just pointing out the realities)

It may seem like it to you I have attitude, I dont have attitude, nor do I harbor bad thoughts to anyone or anything. I am just talking about reality, life death, the usual shit that comes from real fights, proper fights, the kind of shit that war is all about. Up close, personal, eye to eye, feeling the blood flow over your hands as you put a blade under his rib cage. Watching life drown out of his eyes, and then all the post traumatic bullshit you have to live with.

You see, ask your teachers about that. Ask them about what happens afterwards as well. See what experience they have there. Then see if you want to continue learning flowery patterns.

[Rickster]

Flowery patterns? From the 60's? :)

[Rickster]

Old news.

[Henry]

Flowery patterns from the 60's. Hmm so your young and assume you've seen it all. You make some good points , however your statements are for the most part very negaitive. Oh just so you know , those few moves I shared with the DI's, Drill Instructors, may have been what saved your life. They are the ones that teach you how to survive in combat. Plus the best Combat Vet's in the world are the best trained, equiped and yes have a unstoppable will to survive. All combat skills fall into the Martial Art's, some Teachers are good , some not , that's the way of the world. I don't know, but I think The Roman's , the Spartan's were some of the best Martial Artist of there Time. What do you think?
Regards Henry Childers

[Nethvynn]

I think your not understanding part of what I am trying to say here Henry. I am not trying to diss you or your ability. It may well be your one of the guys who teaches realistic shit to people. What I am talking about the multitude of classes out there that teach people a load of trash methods to disarm knife users, or any violent nut using a weapon.
The reason why I am for the most part negative is because I have visited hundreds of classes and have found maybe 1 or 2 run by people who have had real life experience and who teach the truth about real life combat. Most of the others have watched too many movies and have only experienced kumite with pads.

I would never ever go to a class and learn how to knife fight from someone who has never been in a real knife fight, real fight, real combat or a situation where their life has been on the line.

For one those type of MA's have no experience of the adrenaline dump, no experience of Tachypsychia, and no experience of "HEY FUCK I COULD DIE HERE". And certainly no experience of "OH shit I just killed a guy".

Negative sure it is. But then a knife fight is pretty damn negative. As is any fight.

What I am saying is this:
You want to learn how fight? How to use weapons and disarm weapons? Go find someone who has real life experience! Someone who can tell you how it feels, how you react, how to train to react, how to prepare when a situation is building, how to utilize the adrenaline, and how to think on your feet, adapt, overcome and survive. Go to someone who will scenario build, someone who will train with live weapons as well as duds, someone who will put you into pressured drills and someone who is blunt and to the point. Dont go to someone who has fantasy ideas about fights, about using flowery nonsense, and someone who is only interested in making money from selling belts and uniforms.

And yes I agree with your comment about the old guys, however they were all taught in the manner I am talking about. They were taught by people who had been to war. By those who lived in battle.

So yes, if you want to learn go find a guy who is ex military, ex police or what ever, find a teacher who can put this shit in real context.

Anyone else is just gonna be full of shit.

Just my personal experience, and yes many of my experiences have been negative. War is negative. Killing people to survive is not nice and never will be. Finding yourself in a situation with some psycho wanting to spill your blood for your wallet, or finding some knife wielding half human wanting to stick your head on a stick just cos your a yankee, or a pommy or what ever race you are, well its damn right intimidating and damn right negative.

Anyone teaching who has no experience of being scared, and dealing with it dont have the right to teach people. Period......unless its for a sport.

Sport is all positive...its got rules, people are safe. War has no rules, people are not safe.

And yes all combat skills fall into the world of martial arts. I am just trying to distinguish between real world, what works...and some tosser teaching sport nonsense and calling it self defense.

You could called 42 young if you like. I will take that as a compliment. I like the idea of being young at 42. I Feel good now! cheers!

[Rickster]

Henry wrote:

Flowery patterns from the 60's. Hmm so your young and assume you've seen it all. You make some good points , however your statements are for the most part very negaitive. Oh just so you know , those few moves I shared with the DI's, Drill Instructors, may have been what saved your life. They are the ones that teach you how to survive in combat. Plus the best Combat Vet's in the world are the best trained, equiped and yes have a unstoppable will to survive. All combat skills fall into the Martial Art's, some Teachers are good , some not , that's the way of the world. I don't know, but I think The Roman's , the Spartan's were some of the best Martial Artist of there Time. What do you think?
Regards Henry Childers

Is this post directed to me?

[Nethvynn]

Nope it was directed at me mate as I originally mentioned that flowery bullshit techniques taught in dojos by inexperienced uneducated teachers are a one way trip to getting owned in a street fight.

You see, even those of you who practice MMA, JuJitsu, Silat, Thai, Boxing, Wrestling blah blah blah, they all have one thing in common.....RULES!

Real fights have no rules. What I observe in so many classes is that the "inexperienced and uneducated" often teach long winded "flowery" techniques that do nothing to stop 240lb of raging crack head from sinking his teeth into your nose and biting it off, or your ear, or sticking his fingers in your eyes and gauging them out. How many instructors teach you that when your hard pushed the first thing you should do is spit into the opponents face? Or when on the floor and your in a grapple (cos lots of fights end up on the floor within 30 secs) that spitting in the opponents mouth is a good idea? Gag reflex is awesome and gives you plenty of time to shove an elbow into his larynx. How many MA's teach you to use your environment?

Let me give you some examples. One time I happened to be involved in a scrap in a restaurent. Usual bullshit between Soldiers and locals. I also admit it was one of our lot that started it. For that I am ashamed. But soldiers being soldiers stick it out together. Having time to watch what was evolving I unscrewed the pot of chilli sauce and speared it over both my hands..... and then emptied a pot of pepper into my right. You can guess what I was gonna do. When it kicked off the first guy in my way got a face full of pepper and 2 fingers in his eyes with chilli sauce. Nuff said.

No martial arts involved there. No flowery bullshit. Just the fact that I think like an evil son of a bitch in a fight and I am prepared to do anything to you to make you stop. I have never seen a typical martial art class teach anyone anything like this.

I new a guy in my squad who use to throw up when the adrenaline dump hit. I saw him destroy two guys once outside a pub simply because in the midst of the scrap on the floor he pewked into this guys face. The other guys mate retched instantly. And in that second he was grabbed by the balls. The fight ended every quickly after that.

Now before anyone goes on about bragging, I am not bragging. I have had my ass handed to me enough times. What I am trying to point out is that in street fights, people who are use to it, people who live for it will do anything to you. And unfortunately the romance in the dojo dont prepare you for it. You may find some classes in places that do discuss the realities and I take my hat off to them for doing so.

Those of you that dont discuss this, well your pissing in the wind without a raincoat.

I am sorry if any comments i have made at any point have offended any MA guys. But the truth is if you aint training for reality and discussing what reality is about then there is no point to training. You might as well go play cards somewhere.

[Henry]

Nethvynn I agree with most of what you say, all true. However the way you say it will chase away the very people you wish to reach. No one likes to be scared , bullied or shocked to badly. Steel in the gut, screaming savages, will turn those your trying to reach off. Remember what Teddy Roosevelt said speak softly , but carry a big stick. Tone it down abit lead reather than shove it down there gullet. No disrespect is meant. But you guessed it I've tried all approaches and you have to make people want to hear your message , without insult or grossing them out. Oh by the way I've got you by 18 years.
Regards Henry

[Nethvynn]

LoL Henry about the 18 years. Glad to see your still involved and I suppose you practice as well. This gives me hope for myself then..... (smiling and laughing).

My tone may come across blunt and rather harsh, but then I have always been to the point and speak direct. I dont intend to offend anyone, but as to scaring people....sure.... they should be scared, thats because its damn scary and anyone not realising this or not wanting to know this should not get involved in the first place.
I cant remember how many times I have been scared I have lost count. From my time on the door, to military life right through to private security, I have found myself scared a large number of times. And being scared is what keeps you alive. Fear can be a healthy thing as well. Otherwise we would have all burnt ourselves out of home with matches a long long time ago.

All I can say mate is that although I agree to a large extent with what you say, I dont have the time or the will to beat around the bush with people who have trouble facing the truth. The truth of combat is that it sucks, it hurts, its bloody scary and it will change your perception and your out look. Anyone who dont want to know this should never get involved, and they certainly should never make estimates about what they can and can not handle.

I have handled a lot of shit, and i am glad to say I have had good back up, good support, good comms, and shit hot training. Real training.

I beg all of you who look at Self defense seriously to be real to yourself, be real fullstop!

[Henry]

Well I see your point , hope you've seen mine.
Henry

[Nethvynn]

I do see your point, and you made it well! :)

To be honest all in all the best defense in the world is dont be there! :)

Right time for BBQ, a couple of beers and watch the boxing. Recorded Hattons fight, time to watch him get his ass handed to him (or so i heard).




By the way I would recommend to everyone look up the CODEX ALIMENTARIUS.....then petition your MP, Congress Men, Senator or who ever the hell you can. Dont let these Nazi fuckers mess with our food. Check it out... research the Codex, its a trade organisation backed by the WTO and the WHO, who are run by the UN. Look at the statistics and the legislation..... You will not be happy.

[Rickster]

Nethym. What you are saying, is what Ive just about been telling people for decades. Then they get on a Shaolin, ancient-traditional weapon, or other kick. While these maybe good for a art form, how does this help in tough situations? Funny thing you mention gag reflex, a self defense program we had going a long time ago had these. People thought we were strange looking to spit, throw something for distraction, etc.

Beat around the bush with people facing the truth. This, I have tried, and people believe that I am being negative or a troll.

No one is wanting or willing to admit what they are doing is not self defense ready. I come across so many martial artists when I say I carry a gun, they look surpirsed and many tell me that this isnt a martial art thing.

I also come across so many martial artists who are so wrapped up on where, who, what style, and what rank, that they fail to realise that martial arts go beyond all of that.

To me, a martial art is to study fighting. Martial arts were constantly evolving as with weapons. These were always about getting the upperhand over a adversary.

I also have to state, that situations and one's environment is going to dictate how one should train. This isnt about going for, or looking for, a certain teacher, style, fad, rank, etc.

[Assaulter]

So if it isn't about fightin', it ain't worth it.

[Rickster]

Assaulter wrote:

So if it isn't about fightin', it ain't worth it.

I would not go as far as to say that. As I had said many times, some of it can be a art form, hobby, or sport. Whatever floats your boat. The trick is knowing what, where, or how it does or does not apply.

[Nethvynn]

I agree with Rickster. There are those arts that are sports and hobbies. But the true essence of Martial Arts is about WAR! FIGHTING to Survive a hostile violent encounter!

If you want to train because it keeps you fit, motivated and gives you a sense of wellbeing, thats totally fine and lots of people advocate this. If its the sport combat/competition you like that is fine also.

But if your looking to know how to defend yourself then for God sake be REAL! Stop the crappy flowery shit, forget your belts and gradings, and dont go to a teacher that is a money spinning moron. Find an experienced chap who has been there, has seen what it is to have someone bearing down on him with a weapon, and who has survived because he knew what he was doing and did the right things.

Fighting is about reality. Its about being up against the odds. Its about your life being on the line. Its about feeling sick inside, shaking knees and wanting to puke. Its about regret and pain. Its about all the shit things.

I dont want to sound like I am blowing my trumpet because I am not. I am ashamed of the shit I have done. I have shot people. I have killed them. I have used blades. I have killed them also. Of this I am not proud. I see their image quite often. I get nightmares. I wake up sweating. I did what I did to survive a hostile situation. I did this for my country, for my men, and because we were supposed to be helping people in a shit situation.

Now for anyone telling me I got attitude, "eat my ass and choke". Fighting is a god damn shitty nasty thing. You want to survive real shit, then practice real shit.

My philisophy now is dont be there. I got kids and family to love and think about.

[Henry]

Ok boys we have to take the time to help those who can not help themselves. I know that sounds corney. But hey you've got the skill and hopefully learned to teach it. The Martial Arts are just full of showmen and theater. That's not whats needed, real life is whats needed. I've always been a meat and potatoes kind of guy. Teach what works and learn from livin it. But I will not turn anyone away if I think I can help them to better understand how to really survive , wheather it be run away or fight like a cornered RAT. That being said it also about much , much, more. I didn't ever think about that until years down the road when people I taught 25 , 30 years ago found me and told me that what I taught them had ether saved there lives or given them the confidense to live a better life. What you do today matters tomorrow.
Oh good points all Rickster
Regards Henry

[Nethvynn]

Agreed! Meat and Potatoes all the way!

I like your comment there Henry, "teach what works and learn from living it". That applies to everything in life and I could not agree more with you.

Now back to my steak and chips (meat and potatoes!!!)

[Rickster]

I think legends, tales, the media-entertainment, or current trend has many believing what a martial art should be. But in truth, even training in today's military is a martial art. I don't see military factions giving out ranks or belts just for reciting tennents. I see them getting accomodations-medals, when they had put their blood and guts on the line by hurting someone or protecting others. I don't see them getting belts or ranks on how they performed small things like marching drills (forms) saluting (bowing). I don't see a black belt dangling for a servicemen to perform their duty. I don't see servicemen concerned with using a antiquated weapon to perform their duty. Military does have such disciplines, per boot camp, and some retro-fashion to tradition, like traditional martial arts. The military is to prepare for war. Just like the original intention of a martial art.

I don't post my martial art styles (a word description I loath) or my instructors on such a open forum because it SHOULD NOT MATTER.

It isn't these styles or instructors who define me as a martial artist.

It isn't using traditional weapons like a bo, nunchaku, sword, forms, rank, etc., that defines me as a martial artist.

My actions in person, defending myself and family, with WHATEVER means, does.

My morals and obligation, for example, to be a law biding citizen does.

Training and being able to fight for a cause, or per one's self or a loved one, seems like the concept of BECOMING a martial artist.

Like Nethvyn, I have done some things I am not proud of. But we have to live with those and hope to learn and better ourselves from these.

Hmmnnn - "learn and better ourselves", seems to be the beginning foundation of BEING a martial artist.

[Nethvynn]

Nice post Rickster!!! Wish everyone could read that and learn! Well done mate.

[Rickster]

Nethvynn wrote:

Nice post Rickster!!! Wish everyone could read that and learn! Well done mate.

Thank you. I guess you may see why my Karma level is up.

I like it when people dont beat around the bush.

Your posts are very interesting and near my same reality.

[Assaulter]

Near my reality as well... I also will be training again with Richard Dimitri and crew as I am back in Montreal.

[Nethvynn]

Hi there Assaulter, yeah checked your guy out Richard. Now thats the kind of progressive thinking I am talking about! The dude sounds on the case. I liked his comments about "no style" and about blending all styles and learning from all systems, about being PROGRESSIVE! and evolving, about taking experience and learning, improving and never remaining static. Sounded very Bruce Lee to be honest, and when you think about it its only a bunch of morons who took Bruce's philosophy and turned it into a style and made it a system. However if you look at it he took all systems, all styles and took away the rules, made it PROGRESSIVE! God I like that word. Fighting is spontaneous, it is progressive and it is about the SURVIVOR attitude which is what I have been tamping on about.

Good luck and have good fun in your training mate, it sounds like a damn good class to be a member of. Jealous now! haha

Respect

[Rickster]

Nethvynn, some people do not realise that Bruce Lee was the pioneer in authentic MMA. Now, its just a coined term for a sport.

[Assaulter]

Yeah, I can hardly wait to get started today.

[Nethvynn]

Bruce Lee is a Martial Art GOD. I would happily garrotte anyone with a piano wire who says different!

Especially as he had to combat the fascist notions of a corrupt and white supremicist Holywood, not to mention the narrow minded and insular Chinese numbnuts who sort to keep their shit secret.

Again what I see in Bruce is the same progressive attitude, the willingness to adapt and learn that we have all been talking about. The development of the mind set, to culture the warrior spirit, and to embrace the ideal of giving everything up in order to survive.

When you really think about, its only when you accept death, when you are prepared to give up your life, that you can truly save it.

[Rickster]

Hard to believe he'd be 69

[Assaulter]

Apparently fags like shisoshin think otherwise.

[Rickster]

Nethvynn wrote:

When you really think about, its only when you accept death, when you are prepared to give up your life, that you can truly save it.

Or when you think someone close is about to die.

[Nethvynn]

Mind you I quite like the old Jap mentality. In many respects it makes it kind of scary for the guy fighting you if you consider yourself dead already.

Back to the pig roast.....time to apply my extra special honey BBQ sauce and give this bugger a few turns on the spit. Mouth is watering. Guts are rumbling.

Laters

[Rickster]

Nethvynn wrote:

Mind you I quite like the old Jap mentality. In many respects it makes it kind of scary for the guy fighting you if you consider yourself dead already.
What do you mean?

[StillKicking]

I think the best knife defense is to run away very fast.

[Rickster]

StillKicking wrote:

I think the best knife defense is to run away very fast.
If you can run faster than the knifer

[Nethvynn]

The old Samurai had an acceptance of death, within the teachings of Bushido and Zen, death was considered to be part of the cycle of things, essentially they new they were going to die anyway, they accepted this and within thier system they had no fear of death for it was inevitable. A Samurai would not shun death in battle but would welcome the opportunity for an honourable death. As they were able to accept the fact that death was inevitable they could put this fact out of thier mind and get on with the process of fighting, their minds free to augment the strategy of battle.

Therefore if you accept the fact that your death is inevitable, something you can not escape, then there is nothing to fear. The only important thing is how you conduct your life. Once you are free from the thought of death you are free to explore how you choose to live, free to conduct yourself in battle with honour and with courage. A man who does not fear his death is a man to be feared.

[Rickster]

Nethvynn wrote:

The old Samurai had an acceptance of death, within the teachings of Bushido and Zen, death was considered to be part of the cycle of things, essentially they new they were going to die anyway, they accepted this and within thier system they had no fear of death for it was inevitable. A Samurai would not shun death in battle but would welcome the opportunity for an honourable death. As they were able to accept the fact that death was inevitable they could put this fact out of thier mind and get on with the process of fighting, their minds free to augment the strategy of battle.

Therefore if you accept the fact that your death is inevitable, something you can not escape, then there is nothing to fear. The only important thing is how you conduct your life. Once you are free from the thought of death you are free to explore how you choose to live, free to conduct yourself in battle with honour and with courage. A man who does not fear his death is a man to be feared.

Knew this.

I thought when you stated, old Jap mentality, was in reference to WWII. Which was slighly different.

BTW - Zen is not an original Japanese practice.

[Nethvynn]

Yeah most people know about the Samurai mode of thinking. Was just commenting really on the state of mind that they achieve by doing this. Of course Zen was an inherited philosophy, but then isnt everything in some way inherited or added upon.

For me I have a soft spot for the old Jap history, and I find the Samurai tend to personify this frame of "battlemind" quite well. Whether that is due to the romanticism of 15th century poets and writers or whether it is historic fact is a different debate. Probably the culmination of both, as I am sure there were plenty of the buggers who were cowards on the battle field. No one is perfect after all.

However I am also drawn to the old Spartan ways as well. The Spartans were another breed who trained with this same frame of mind. Although nothing to do with Zen, which as we probably all know was inherited philosophy for the Japs, the Spartans still had mind set in training to develop a lack of fear and to welcome the glory of an honourable and courageous death. This whole honour in death business, while at the same time stamping the shit out of anyone and anything that stands in your way before you eat shit yourself.

I think for most of us westerners we lack the training and the time to deeply philosophise upon such things, and moreover its not a cultural norm that is bred into us at certain class levels. Or put another way its not socially expected of us these days by our peers or by those we serve or master. The Japs are the same in this as modernity has bred a new era of thinking. Perhaps in the Yakuza you might see some of the old die hard Samurai traits, but not so with the modern Jap.

There are probaly plenty of examples where we could all point to where warriors have had this brave NO FEAR attitude. Others might include the Maori and even the Native North American Indian. Again the social dictates of a culture produce expected norms to be adhered to, and to shun them often brings disgrace to the individual or the family name, and sometimes even the village in which they lived.

The main thing is, as far as making a statement goes, its is this mindset that allows these warriors to face odds that would crush the average mind with fear. This is generally the gist of what underpins most Martial training but is not really developed in the average dojo or training hall simply because it is not culturally and socially the expected thing. But if it is something that you can adhere to, something you can meditate on and develop as a sense of being I feel that it makes you a stronger fighter.

Personally I have always considered myself a warrior and have always tried to follow the cast I would dare to say I am in. To be a better soldier death is something that has to be accepted. To be a better person death is something to be accepted. Acceptance means we can get on with it.

I think here I can refer to an earlier post in this conversation or it might have been a slightly different post, but no matter I am going to steel their words as I feel they are good words and essentially culminate in what we are all aiming at: Our training, our philosophy is basically a way for us to be better at what we are and what we do, to be better people and to lead better lives. Accepting death in this sense is to free ourselves so we can do this and Live!

Regards to all

[Rickster]

I somewhat disagree. Accepting death does not necessarily make one a better warrior. The preservation of life, protection of one's homeland, and ideals motivate the warrior mentality as well.

[Nethvynn]

Well ideals such as preserving life and protecting the homeland go right out the window when a warrior is concerned and frightened by the knowledge he is about to die. I speak from experience here, I have seen soldiers freeze and shit themselves because they are frightened, death is terrifying and overpowering. Sure sitting in the Baracks they are full of themselves, they have plenty of ideals, plenty of courage. When the bullets fly and the explosions start it is never surprising to see those who are consumed by the thought of their own death fail to act as they always said they would. On the otherhand I have seen plenty of men, whether they know it or not, accept the situation, accept the fact they are likely to die, and it is an issue that is thrown out of the mind. Dieing is not a factor. They know its going to happen. With this their ideals as you speak of are what fill their hearts and minds, their determination to protect the people next to them, to fulfill their duty etc etc. What is a hero? A hero is someone who puts his life on the line to save and protect others. More often than not heroes die. They are not consumed with thoughts of dieing or their own death. They are consumed instead with the present moment, the saving of life as you mentioned. But you can not do this if you are consumed by thoughts of your own death. It is paralysing.

You can check the history of the Vikings, the Spartans, the Maori, The Native Indians of North America, the Samurai and many more. All of them in one way or another accept and welcome death in battle. It is an honour to die bravely. Acceptance like this makes for a formidable fighting force. Acceptance like this allows them to fight for what they believe in. To fight for the ideals you speak of.

This is just not a point of belief for me, it has been a point of belief of some of the greatest warrior casts that ever lived.

I hope this better explains what I am trying to get across. I am not saying that ideals are not important, or any of the other things you mention, I am just saying that when you accept death these things are free to fill the mind, and your heart, and allow you to act in the moment without fear.

[Rickster]

Nethvynn wrote:

Well ideals such as preserving life and protecting the homeland go right out the window when a warrior is concerned and frightened by the knowledge he is about to die. I speak from experience here, I have seen soldiers freeze and shit themselves because they are frightened, death is terrifying and overpowering. Sure sitting in the Baracks they are full of themselves, they have plenty of ideals, plenty of courage. When the bullets fly and the explosions start it is never surprising to see those who are consumed by the thought of their own death fail to act as they always said they would. On the otherhand I have seen plenty of men, whether they know it or not, accept the situation, accept the fact they are likely to die, and it is an issue that is thrown out of the mind. Dieing is not a factor. They know its going to happen. With this their ideals as you speak of are what fill their hearts and minds, their determination to protect the people next to them, to fulfill their duty etc etc. What is a hero? A hero is someone who puts his life on the line to save and protect others. More often than not heroes die. They are not consumed with thoughts of dieing or their own death. They are consumed instead with the present moment, the saving of life as you mentioned. But you can not do this if you are consumed by thoughts of your own death. It is paralysing.

You can check the history of the Vikings, the Spartans, the Maori, The Native Indians of North America, the Samurai and many more. All of them in one way or another accept and welcome death in battle. It is an honour to die bravely. Acceptance like this makes for a formidable fighting force. Acceptance like this allows them to fight for what they believe in. To fight for the ideals you speak of.

This is just not a point of belief for me, it has been a point of belief of some of the greatest warrior casts that ever lived.

I hope this better explains what I am trying to get across. I am not saying that ideals are not important, or any of the other things you mention, I am just saying that when you accept death these things are free to fill the mind, and your heart, and allow you to act in the moment without fear.
Thanks for the explanation. But I do not totally agree. I stated I somewhat disagree. The fear of death, or lack of it, doesnt make one a better warrior or vice versa. The command, weapons, confidence, and, as I said beliefs, also play a huge part. The Japanese of WWII did not only follow a code of Bushido, or Zen. They had a belief that their emperor was a living God on earth. To die for him was a honor.

What I am saying, that a belief will overcome or have it that one will die for a cause, rather fearing death or not.

A hero puts himself to save or protect others. The thought of death does cross his mind. The thought of others dying has more of a signifance.

Ordinary, everday people can be brave, selfless, and perform heroic acts, despite fearing death. As Franklin P. Jones had stated; "Bravery is being the only one who knows you are afraid. Afterall, how can one be brave if they are not scared?"

In some cases, fear creates bravery. It jump-starts some reaction in the mind and body, in these cases, opposite to what you call "freezing".

If, not fearing death is the act of being brave or a warrior, then upon death, the warrior in no more. Thus can serve no one. A skillful warrior is one who can survive to fight another day. Not one who does not fear death and wastes his life in a futile manner that has no purpose.<br><br>Post edited by: Rickster, at: 2009/05/19 04:55

[Nethvynn]

Nice writing. But still not what I am on about. Those who accept death are still free to pursue the moment. It does not mean that they waste their life futily. The Spartans were skillfull warriors, perhaps some of the best trained fighters in history. They did not fear death because they trained that way, their society was one based on excellence, and they would welcome death in battle if it came. Thats not to say they through thier lives away for no reason.
Your not wrong in what you say either. There are many reasons that normal everyday people will overcome hostile and high stress situations, just as you mention. What I am talking about is highly trained warriors, and it is thier acceptance that makes them formidable. Again the Spartans are a historical example of such fighting men. Not only highly trained and efficient killers, with extreme physical prowess, but they had the mental strength that comes from accepting death "knowing it as a friend". With no fear in their minds it made them very formidable. And being highly trained of course they lived to fight another day. This is because without fear in their hearts ruling their minds they were able to focus on the strategy of battle. Rather than running amoc like a headless chicken pumped on adrenaline and throwing their lives away. Not only that but they had all the other things you speak of fueling that drive. Be it the preservation of their country, loved ones, ideals etc etc. I am just saying that a trained warrior, someone who is not only skillful in the arms he carries but also in tactics and strategy, is greatly improved when his mind is free of the fear of death.
The same can be said for the Vikings in a manner of speaking. For them killing was a form of fun. Death was a source of honour. Fighting such an enemy is difficult because you cant intimidate them. Like you say emotions can fuel people to overcome their fears, but emotions can the link to loved ones can also be the source of intimidation and control. The thought of losing them through defiance and your actions can also make you want to give in. The Spartans on the other hand would have welcomed death, they would stand united, men women and children. You can not intimidate such people.

What you say is not wrong, and I totally agree with what you explain in terms of what can drive people, especially ordinary everyday people who overcome very difficult situations. But for the well versed warrior, the meditations, cultural, and social ideals which lead them to find acceptance and honour in death, make them extremely formidable foes. Again this is not my opinion this is the history of some of the greatest fighting forces ever to have existed.

[Nethvynn]

Also in reference to the Japanese in WW2, viewing thier emperor as a living God, and being willing to die for him, again this comes down to an acceptance of death. A willingness to die. Again this made them formidable. How can you intimidate a soldier who is willing to die, who will sacrifice himself. A Kamikaze had to have an acceptance of what he was doing or he would not do it. In this case it was the honour of dieing for their so called living God, which still amounts to accepting the process of their own death.

[Rickster]

I understand what you say and you speak of warriors long ago. We do not know that most of them were not afraid of death. I am saying a fear would have one even get more defensive.

Bottom line, modern military, per since the invention of cannon/firearms, warriors became soldiers. Soldiers seem to never be trained to not fear death.

[Nethvynn]

To be honest modern warfare is a load of bollocks. I mean we teach our soldiers in the UK all kinds of bollocks, and its getting em killed. Fear is healthy in the right dosage. Fear of getting burned stops you as a child from using matches and burning your house down. But when the adrenaline is going and fear is sneaking in behind it, or just ahead of it, you are gonna freeze and that means you or your buddies getting snotted asap. When I talk about fearlessness and the acceptance of death, I am talking about the same kind of control that any experienced fighter should show. Forget about winning and losing the battle, the outcome is irrelvant to the processes of the moment, Win the moment by being free of your emotional content, focus on the task in front of you, deliver the strategy without the fog of fear, and crush the enemy in front of you.

Again some of this is what goes back to TACT, which is Tactical Arousal Control Techniques, which we were taught in the forces. The ability to have the adrenaline pumping in your system, and to bring it into tight focus, using it and not being used by it. Primary arousal will be the immediate fight at hand, the main reason for the adrenaline to be flowing. But Secondary Arousal is what comes from thinking too much, the outcome, death, being hurt, seeing your mates hurt, is your gun gonna work, will it jam?, is the comms working, is there backup on its way? and a shit load of other thoughts can stall your mainframe (the brain) and reduce you to a dysfunctional bag of shit.

The thing is you can train yourself to control the fear, control the adrenaline and to focus your emotions. Its not just some ancient wishy wash nonsense that only the Spartans knew about. Modern combat techniques would not be where they are today. And combat psychology is what it is, as is strategy and tactics based upon the learnings of our predecessors. The techniques used in TACT are very similar and are to some extents based on the same techniques that were taught in Yoga, Kungfu, etc and the same shit that was taught to the Gladiators, The Spartans, in Zen, and in many cultures. As most cultures and combat systems all teach some sort of breath control, meditation, psychology, philosophy and/or spirituality that allows for a deeper perception of life and the universe, and towards the soul or spirit. Obviously these all vary to extremes from one method to the other, there is great diversity in technique and or belief. But essentially there are many roads to the same place and they all lead to the one simple fact: The martial doctrines are aimed at creating a warrior that is mentally, physically and spiritually balanced and strong. Now some folks will go on about the spirit and that the higher purposes are elightenment blah blah blah, but to be honest that is a crock of shit. You dont need to be learnign 1001 moves to kill someone to become enlightened. Man has always been at war. Ever since history can remember man has killed man. For food, for water, for fun, for nothing...whatever the reason. Martial arts......i hate the word arts, the martial systems are exactly that, methods of training warriors to be that Warriors! To make them strong, fast, agile and effective. To free the mind and the spirit of the emotional weight, and for them to be able to focus on the moment, the task of the kill, the battle before them. How many Zen systems talk of giving up thoughts of the self, there is no I, that selflessness, the dropping of the ego and all the other psychobabel. Well the same psychobabel is still taught today, it has a different mantra a different tune but its still the same old shit thats taught today to special forces and to anyone else who has an interest in persueing this you can find plenty of books and materials online.

[Rickster]

NICE WRITING

Nethvynn wrote:

To be honest modern warfare is a load of bollocks. I mean we teach our soldiers in the UK all kinds of bollocks, and its getting em killed. Fear is healthy in the right dosage. Fear of getting burned stops you as a child from using matches and burning your house down. But when the adrenaline is going and fear is sneaking in behind it, or just ahead of it, you are gonna freeze and that means you or your buddies getting snotted asap. Modern warfare turned from warrior to soldier. Remember when military armies started the soldier bit with the Britsh and those goofy lined skirmishes? Then with machine guns, trench. Then to sutpass that, machines like tanks and planes. YEP- MODERN WARFARE TURNED FROM WARRIOR TO SOLDIER.



Nethvynn wrote:

When I talk about fearlessness and the acceptance of death, I am talking about the same kind of control that any experienced fighter should show.
Most experienced fighters are not thinking of death because they are not in a war zone to see death all around.


Nethvynn wrote:

Forget about winning and losing the battle, the outcome is irrelvant to the processes of the moment, Win the moment by being free of your emotional content,
Looks like Bruce Lee's philosophy.


Nethvynn wrote:

focus on the task in front of you, deliver the strategy without the fog of fear, and crush the enemy in front of you.
If you have a loved one with you, you will have fear.


Nethvynn wrote:

Again some of this is what goes back to TACT, which is Tactical Arousal Control Techniques, which we were taught in the forces. The ability to have the adrenaline pumping in your system, and to bring it into tight focus, using it and not being used by it. Primary arousal will be the immediate fight at hand, the main reason for the adrenaline to be flowing. But Secondary Arousal is what comes from thinking too much, the outcome, death, being hurt, seeing your mates hurt, is your gun gonna work, will it jam?, is the comms working, is there backup on its way? and a shit load of other thoughts can stall your mainframe (the brain) and reduce you to a dysfunctional bag of shit.
No comment


Nethvynn wrote:

The thing is you can train yourself to control the fear, control the adrenaline and to focus your emotions. Its not just some ancient wishy wash nonsense that only the Spartans knew about. Modern combat techniques would not be where they are today. And combat psychology is what it is, as is strategy and tactics based upon the learnings of our predecessors. The techniques used in TACT are very similar and are to some extents based on the same techniques that were taught in Yoga, Kungfu, etc and the same shit that was taught to the Gladiators, The Spartans, in Zen, and in many cultures. As most cultures and combat systems all teach some sort of breath control, meditation, psychology, philosophy and/or spirituality that allows for a deeper perception of life and the universe, and towards the soul or spirit. Obviously these all vary to extremes from one method to the other, there is great diversity in technique and or belief. But essentially there are many roads to the same place and they all lead to the one simple fact: The martial doctrines are aimed at creating a warrior that is mentally, physically and spiritually balanced and strong. Now some folks will go on about the spirit and that the higher purposes are elightenment blah blah blah, but to be honest that is a crock of shit. You dont need to be learnign 1001 moves to kill someone to become enlightened. Man has always been at war. Ever since history can remember man has killed man. For food, for water, for fun, for nothing...whatever the reason. Martial arts......i hate the word arts, the martial systems are exactly that, methods of training warriors to be that Warriors! To make them strong, fast, agile and effective. To free the mind and the spirit of the emotional weight, and for them to be able to focus on the moment, the task of the kill, the battle before them.
Sometimes fear or spiritual, per a religious belief, will create a extreme opponent


Nethvynn wrote:

How many Zen systems talk of giving up thoughts of the self, there is no I, that selflessness, the dropping of the ego and all the other psychobabel. Well the same psychobabel is still taught today, it has a different mantra a different tune but its still the same old shit thats taught today to special forces and to anyone else who has an interest in persueing this you can find plenty of books and materials online.
Material online isnt the same as hving the proper instructor.

[Biter]

What if you have both?B)

[Nethvynn]

When I said you can look online I did not mean go buy a book on Zen, I was referring to texts that discuss control techniques with regards modern combat, security, police and military personnel. Sources from Remsberg, Siddle, Grossman and Murray have given good information on performance changes that occur in high stress situations. Another source is Lt Col Dave Grossman who maintains that Tactical breathing and other techniques are to be used in order to minimise the negative effects of the adrenal dump, the effects of fear and secondary arousal factors.

Again referring to the spiritual / fear that may propel a person. Sure fear can give a person the "RAT caught in a CORNER" psychology. They will fight to the death if needs be. As will someone who is prepelled by strong religious or spiritual beliefs. With those who have strong religious beliefs their own personnel demise is sometimes down to Martyrdom, or from a Zen point of view this comes back to the acceptance of their own death as inevitable therefore there is no fear of dieing as their spiritual needs take care of this. Strong belief systems, as I maintained are social and cultural in nature and endoctrination takes place at a young age. For many warrior cultures this is certainly so.

However, excessive fear is never healthy, and although it can be seen in certain scenarios that an individual makes a last stand it does not make for clear thinking. Fear causes desperation and this does not make for a good warrior / Soldier.

At the end of the day, a warrior or soldier, who can find acceptance and not be afraid of his or her own death, be this through spiritual guidance, religious focus, meditation, combat training or personnel tenacity, the point is and to quote Mr. Lee once more
"Win the moment by being free of your emotional content!"

And like I said, if you care to do the reading and care to practice the techniques that are taught today, techniques that I was taught while in the forces, they are designed to reduce the negative impact of fear and the adrenalin dump. They use a range of techniques from self hypnosis, meditation and breathing control techniques that allow the well versed practitioner to focus in high stress situations.

These are techniques that are now being taught to the Police, Military and Security Personnel. The reason I know this is I teach it.

From my own personnel experience I would rather fight beside 20 well trained soldiers, who know their role, who know they may well die and accept this fact, who know how to focus themselves than to fight with 2000 soldiers fueled by thoughts for their girlfriend who they left back home, and the pet dog they miss, and the fact the explosions are scaring them.

I have seen it all too often, folks join the forces, see the world, do sports, pick up the girls etc etc....life is a dream. But when the bullets start flying they aint prepared to die. Thier the kind of smucks who hide behind sandbags cuddling their rifle like its their girlfriend praying they dont kick it in the next 5 min. Personnally I cant stand these saps, they should never have joined the forces in the first place.

First thing any soldier should be prepared for and thats death. You are there to fight. All this modern bollocks about peacekeeping is a crock of shit. War is War plain and simple. It means killing or being killed. The problem is today in the modern world we have all this political correctness and liberal thinking bullshit that means we have created fighting forces that are soft in the head.

The other problem is its all too easy for these Jar heads to sit back and push buttons on their play station controller and nuke some poor son of a bitch in his trench. I say bring back the good old days where you had to look the enemy in his eyes and watch the fucker die. Put the guts back into warfare. Teach people to fight properly, and to accept the fact that death is a big part of war and it happens a lot.

Take the Ghurkha regiment for example. They dont get scared. I have seen plenty of yanks, marines, rangers etc etc and to be honest they are a bunch of gung ho burger munching basketball playing whackheads. And unless they can put 2million rounds of ammo into something they are never happy. Unless they have an armada to back them up they are next to useless.
The Ghurkha on the other hand, quiet, efficient, FEARLESS! You cant intimidate them. You cant scare them. Tactically they are floorless. And in combat I would never ever wish to be the bigger opposing force. Because you will lose against them. Period.

Again the Gkurkha fought fearlessly against the British. Historically they handed the Brits their asses. You can not win against an enemy who is prepared to die. Its that simple.

You can go round in circles all day about what will prepel someone and want wont. But the simple fact is, a man who who accepts death, who is prepared to die (whether that is for something he believes in, loved ones or whatever)and does not sink into his fear is a foe to be reckoned with. You might well win in the end, you may have superior numbers, better weapons or whatever, but you will take heavy heavy losses and you will regret going up against such an enemy. History supports this. Again the Ghurkhas and the Spartans are two such perfect examples.

[Biter]

Agreed

[Rickster]

The Spartans are a warriors long past. If they were so great, their country would still be a superior power. Get off the ancient warrior stuff because they are no longer around.

The time has come, just like traditonalists who cling on to wasted moves and thoughts, so too, those keep reflecting upon warriors past.

Society is in a new millineum. A man nowadays who doesn't fear death is a fool. There is much more to loose than life if one is not cautious.<br><br>Post edited by: Rickster, at: 2009/05/26 06:18

[Nethvynn]

Laugh my ass off. Obviously you dont have a clue. I used them as an example as I did the Ghurkha who I served with. Just because they are no longer around does not mean they were not elite in their day. Time changes and societies and cultures evolve.

Those of us who reflect upon those from the past learn from their efforts and their knowledge and use it to become better. If you dont understand that then you are basically a moron. Every military forces in the world has used the knowledge of those from previous cultures, the tactics and strategy are improved upon, weaponry evolves as does the soldier / warrior. Call them what you wish.

Why should anyone fear death? its inevitable! Its not something you can stop or avoid. It will happen. Just because you dont fear it does not mean you are careless. You need to distinguish between those two terms....Fearlessness does not automatically mean Carelessness. I doubt very much you know anything about what I am talking about because I doubt very much you have had the privalage to serve with such people who know what it is not to fear thier own death. Men who have the capacity to endeavour in battle, to go against superior numbers and so called superior firepower and win. Tactics and Strategy, strength of mind and willpower to see things through no matter what. To control any fear they have, overcome, adapt and survive against all odds. Or die if needed in order to achieve the objective that was set for them. To be a soldier, or warrior to use the "old out moded term" means to be prepared to lay down your life, to follow orders, and get shit done.

Oh sorry hang on, I forgot we are all fools. I stand corrected. Corrected by someone who tits about in a dojo somewhere with his mates twice a week who obviously knows all there is to know about real combat. What real experience do you bring to the table if any?

So why should a man nowdays fear death? The only reason I can think of is if you are some Christian son of a bitch who has committed sin and who believes they are going to hell for eternity. Other than that death is just one of lifes little processes. Unavoidable, totally inescapable, no matter what you do to avoid it its going to happen. So why fear it? And why should people today particularly fear it? Has something changed since the time of the Spartans? Is there some little secret that you know that none of us do? You honestly believe that fearing your death is going to make you live longer?

You see for me, not fearing tomorrow allows me to enjoy today. I dont fear my death, and I welcome every moment of life. This is the same for many of the guys I served with.

Nuff said. You either get it or you dont. Period.

[Rickster]

Oh my. How we are quick to get offensive. The not fearing death and Spartans thing, I have seen and heard for many other discussions over a period of time. This is not only directed to you. I agree, one should try to overcome fears, but to fear, is a natural human emotion. Fearing death, is not a fear of tommorrow. Nor does it carry and idea of shame or cowardice. A fear, to me, is a natural response. One that can turn some to perform acts of bravery. You think I equate fear to carelessness. I think you equate fear to some type of lack of machoism or cowardice.

I am not concerned if someone served in the military and either had fear or not. I am not concerned if someone in the military desires to look upon example of past culture to somewhat learn. Though so much of a distant past cannot instill the problems of what a modern military is faced with, or vice versa.

I dont fear death, but I dont go boasting on how I served in the military and those there were scared, or I keep making references to Spartans.

Kudos to anyone who served in any armed force.<br><br>Post edited by: Rickster, at: 2009/05/25 06:34

[Fearless]

Well, I did some rappelling and monkey-wire climbing from the Montreal Biosphere yesterday. A very refreshing experience to play with death.

[Nethvynn]

No your previous comments were very dismissive. Even nonchalant and slightly contemptuous. Bordering on the naive and the arrogant.

God I should shut up cos I must remember I am a boastful fool after all, but I suppose thats better than being just a fool.

[Nethvynn]

One other thing. You badly contradict what you say and what you believe. And I quote:

"A man nowadays who doesn't fear death is a fool."

"I dont fear death."

Mmmmmm. I think you need to rethink what you know or what you think you know, what you say and what you believe in, because if the above statements are anything to go by you dont know whether your coming or going. But at least you make me laugh a little. Chuckle chuckle.

[Unbannable]

Well maybe Rickster is claiming to be a fool after all!:laugh: :woohoo: B)

[Rickster]

Nethvynn wrote:

One other thing. You badly contradict what you say and what you believe. And I quote:

"A man nowadays who doesn't fear death is a fool."

"I dont fear death."

Mmmmmm. I think you need to rethink what you know or what you think you know, what you say and what you believe in, because if the above statements are anything to go by you dont know whether your coming or going. But at least you make me laugh a little. Chuckle chuckle.


I like this post, to a degree:
The old Samurai had an acceptance of death, within the teachings of Bushido and Zen, death was considered to be part of the cycle of things, essentially they new they were going to die anyway, they accepted this and within thier system they had no fear of death for it was inevitable. A Samurai would not shun death in battle but would welcome the opportunity for an honourable death. As they were able to accept the fact that death was inevitable they could put this fact out of thier mind and get on with the process of fighting, their minds free to augment the strategy of battle.

Like in the beginning of this thread, you may notice I have much agreeemnt of what you had posted. No need to re-think, as much for you to re-read.

You are part correct about the Samurai, except for Zen and this is also in part.

Without causing offense, I disagree, to an EXTENT, that having no fear is the ONLY thing a warrior, or anyone has to have to be victorious in battle.

Thus my closing statement:

I do not contradict anything I believe. I look upon things from advocatus diaboli.

[Nethvynn]

I was not speaking in absolutes that no fear was the only thing a warrior needs. I was simply making the statement that the ability to accept the process of death as inevitable, the ability to control and / or dispel your fear of death, or to live or to be brought up within a system that teaches you not to fear death, makes for a formidable opponent. The reason simply being that they are totally prepared to commit themselves to the actions necessary to stop you in your tracks. An opponent without fear is impossible to intimidate. An opponent that accepts death is free to focus on the tactics of battle.

This is not to say that other factors can not or do not prepel people to commit acts of bravery or sacrifice.

But I can assure you of one thing. Although fear can allow people to act out of desperation to protect themselves, 9 times out of 10, if an attacker, enemy etc sees you are scared they will use this against you. They will seek to intimidate, to scare, and exploit your weakness. I have never said that having no fear is the only thing.

A soldier / Warrior with no fear but bollocks training is a dead man. With no fear and a careless nature he is a dead man. With no fear and a lack of respect he is a dead man.
On the contrary, a man who is without fear, with good training, who is cautious, a thinker, tactical, and who can strike fear into his enemy is indeed formidable.

This has been my point all along.

Going back to the knife defence part of this thread:

If you are caught in an alley way with a 6foot 4 inch 240lb crack head with a knife, who is use to the violence, who is use to stabbing folks for their wallets so he can get his next fix, then you are in a situation where he will see the fear in your eyes, he will use that against you, and he will not hesitate while you work out what the hell you are going to do.
Yes, someone who is shitting it may well lash out in fright and get the job done. But a man who is controlled, who is calm and collected, who can swallow fear like a smartie and look the attacker in the eye, and who is prepared to do all that is necessary stands a far better chance of surviving.

Learning to control your fear, learning to control your adrenaline, learning and meditating on the fact that death is inevitable and that its how you chose to live that counts, is a freedom that allows you to act and take control of yourself and hopefully the situation.

And this is my point. Being free of fear allows you to decide how you are going to live, how you are going to stand and fight. And is as far as my limited experience in life is concerned an essential part of the combat mindset.


By the way, in way of compliment I do love your last sentence: "I look upon things from advocatus diaboli"

Totally wicked sentence.

[WildFireJoe]

Nethvynn wrote:


If you are caught in an alley way with a 6foot 4 inch 240lb crack head with a knife, who is use to the violence, who is use to stabbing folks for their wallets so he can get his next fix, then you are in a situation where he will see the fear in your eyes, he will use that against you, and he will not hesitate while you work out what the hell you are going to do.
Yes, someone who is shitting it may well lash out in fright and get the job done. But a man who is controlled, who is calm and collected, who can swallow fear like a smartie and look the attacker in the eye, and who is prepared to do all that is necessary stands a far better chance of surviving.



Quite honestly if I got caught in that situation, I'd just toss my wallet and get out of there. With luck he'd be more interested in the cash then me.

[Nethvynn]

Some folks are sick in the head and will happily stick you anyway just for the fun of it. It might not be the wallet he is after, could be anything else on you. Could be the fact he might want intimate relations with you in the gloom. Who knows what is going through the mind of some nutter. The situation could be entirely different, but whatever scenario you want to build or imagine, try to imagine one where the dude with the blade really really really wants to be putting it in you. Maybe you humped his misses, maybe you killed his pet cat in a car accident, it dont really matter the reasons why, all that matters is that you have some moron, or maybe he aint a moron, whatever, but all he can think about is making you the bleeder on the floor.

Check out some of the whacko gang shit that goes on. Those fuckheads will put a knife or a bullet in you just for initiation. Theres no reasoning with them. The thing is they are there to indoctrinate some young twat who things joing a gang is his way up in life. So they are looking for blood.

More often than not civilians find themselves in these extreme circumstances when they are least expecting it. The shame is that they are either in bed with a break in, coming out of a restaurant, bar or club or something, whatever. But the point is its when they are in a passive, easy going state of mind, one where they have been enjoying themselves or relaxing. Take as an example a killing that took place near where I am. A young lad in a 24/7, buying stuff for his folks. Gets his throat cut by some other kid who bumps into him in the cue and for whatever reason goes beserk and opens him with a blade. The cctv shown before he is killed (which they dont show on camera) does show him with at least 10 seconds where he is talking to the guy with the knife, probably and most obviously trying to passify the knob with the knife. On examination of the scene, now sounds a little whacky because I tend to examine shit like this if I can, or get the chance, shows him with a can of some sort of spray on the counter. Behind him is also one of those security ropes linked to a stand with a hook which he could easily have picked up. Now this like everything is a WHAT IF situation. Easy with hind sight to talk about what he could have done. When your in it there is always a big difference. But the one thing you can see is that he is scared and he has frozen, and is babbling crap about not wanting to get hurt, take my money blah blah and all the usual twaddle that people say in those kind of situations;

Anyone with good training, Krav Maga, Systema, or some other descent military or security training would have the capacity to see the opportunities to defend yourself. That they would using thier breathing, their focus and thier control to do what they needed to do.

Theres not a thing I dont look at as a weapon. Almost everything that you can think of or see around you can be used in some way to distract, hit, create opportunity etc, but its having the focus to do this.

Another important factor is having the ability to read the situation. Understanding how serious it is. Knowing that the guy aint going away, or whether he is gonna really do what he is threatening, knowing how to feign your own psychology, being able to go from passive and cowardly, faking your frame of mind, to becoming extremely aggressive in a blink of an eye. This kind of pyschology, tactical thinking and progressive attitutde are what establish survivors of hostile situations. People with the balls and the tenacity to do what is needed.

Unfortunately there are a lot of poor souls out there who dont have a friggin clue, and for them they are already six feet under because of some whack job. The shame is quite often that they did not have descent training and a working knowledge to use in the hostile situation. The other sad thing is there are also a lot of gung ho idiots who had a little knowledge and have actely carelessly and with balls the size of melons. But they still go snotted.

Probably as we all know, and I am stating the bloody obvious here, that violent situations when they are encountered for the first time for real, are bloody terrifying to most normal folks. Its not like everyone can get the exposure to such hostility where they can learn to overcome it, understand it and beat it.

I think your right, for most folks throw the damn wallet on the floor and beg to be left alone. If possible run like fuck screaming help.

Failing that be prepared to fight, be prepared to maim, wound, disable, distract....or kill and then run like fuck.

I knew a guy who was in the Parashute Regiment, British Forces. He stands a good 6' 8" tall. He is 22 stone in weight and is ripped muscle. He is also a veteran of the faulklands and a number of other harsh encounters, not to mention Mercenary work that he has done in Africa. He is one mean tough motherfucker and a well able soldier. The thing is, in his home town he was accosted by a group of kids, aged from 9 to 15 years old. About 10 or 11 of em. A good many of them were carry blades. Stanely knives, pocket knives, a screw driver and a few other things.

The only thing he did was run. And he told me, not because he was scared. After all the guy had been through hell and back. But he run because he felt totally impotent in a situation like that. What was he going to do? Beat up and kill a load of kids?

The kids were serious. A bunch of hardened little street shits who aint worried about nothing. Least of all carving someone up. Mental aint it, to think shit like this happens.

But there you go. Things are never what you expect them to be.

Mind you he never did throw down his wallet.

[WildFireJoe]

Nethvynn wrote:

Some folks are sick in the head and will happily stick you anyway just for the fun of it. It might not be the wallet he is after, could be anything else on you. Could be the fact he might want intimate relations with you in the gloom. Who knows what is going through the mind of some nutter. The situation could be entirely different, but whatever scenario you want to build or imagine, try to imagine one where the dude with the blade really really really wants to be putting it in you. Maybe you humped his misses, maybe you killed his pet cat in a car accident, it dont really matter the reasons why, all that matters is that you have some moron, or maybe he aint a moron, whatever, but all he can think about is making you the bleeder on the floor.

Check out some of the whacko gang shit that goes on. Those fuckheads will put a knife or a bullet in you just for initiation. Theres no reasoning with them. The thing is they are there to indoctrinate some young twat who things joing a gang is his way up in life. So they are looking for blood.

More often than not civilians find themselves in these extreme circumstances when they are least expecting it. The shame is that they are either in bed with a break in, coming out of a restaurant, bar or club or something, whatever. But the point is its when they are in a passive, easy going state of mind, one where they have been enjoying themselves or relaxing. Take as an example a killing that took place near where I am. A young lad in a 24/7, buying stuff for his folks. Gets his throat cut by some other kid who bumps into him in the cue and for whatever reason goes beserk and opens him with a blade. The cctv shown before he is killed (which they dont show on camera) does show him with at least 10 seconds where he is talking to the guy with the knife, probably and most obviously trying to passify the knob with the knife. On examination of the scene, now sounds a little whacky because I tend to examine shit like this if I can, or get the chance, shows him with a can of some sort of spray on the counter. Behind him is also one of those security ropes linked to a stand with a hook which he could easily have picked up. Now this like everything is a WHAT IF situation. Easy with hind sight to talk about what he could have done. When your in it there is always a big difference. But the one thing you can see is that he is scared and he has frozen, and is babbling crap about not wanting to get hurt, take my money blah blah and all the usual twaddle that people say in those kind of situations;

Anyone with good training, Krav Maga, Systema, or some other descent military or security training would have the capacity to see the opportunities to defend yourself. That they would using thier breathing, their focus and thier control to do what they needed to do.

Theres not a thing I dont look at as a weapon. Almost everything that you can think of or see around you can be used in some way to distract, hit, create opportunity etc, but its having the focus to do this.

Another important factor is having the ability to read the situation. Understanding how serious it is. Knowing that the guy aint going away, or whether he is gonna really do what he is threatening, knowing how to feign your own psychology, being able to go from passive and cowardly, faking your frame of mind, to becoming extremely aggressive in a blink of an eye. This kind of pyschology, tactical thinking and progressive attitutde are what establish survivors of hostile situations. People with the balls and the tenacity to do what is needed.

Unfortunately there are a lot of poor souls out there who dont have a friggin clue, and for them they are already six feet under because of some whack job. The shame is quite often that they did not have descent training and a working knowledge to use in the hostile situation. The other sad thing is there are also a lot of gung ho idiots who had a little knowledge and have actely carelessly and with balls the size of melons. But they still go snotted.

Probably as we all know, and I am stating the bloody obvious here, that violent situations when they are encountered for the first time for real, are bloody terrifying to most normal folks. Its not like everyone can get the exposure to such hostility where they can learn to overcome it, understand it and beat it.

I think your right, for most folks throw the damn wallet on the floor and beg to be left alone. If possible run like fuck screaming help.

Failing that be prepared to fight, be prepared to maim, wound, disable, distract....or kill and then run like fuck.

I knew a guy who was in the Parashute Regiment, British Forces. He stands a good 6' 8" tall. He is 22 stone in weight and is ripped muscle. He is also a veteran of the faulklands and a number of other harsh encounters, not to mention Mercenary work that he has done in Africa. He is one mean tough motherfucker and a well able soldier. The thing is, in his home town he was accosted by a group of kids, aged from 9 to 15 years old. About 10 or 11 of em. A good many of them were carry blades. Stanely knives, pocket knives, a screw driver and a few other things.

The only thing he did was run. And he told me, not because he was scared. After all the guy had been through hell and back. But he run because he felt totally impotent in a situation like that. What was he going to do? Beat up and kill a load of kids?

The kids were serious. A bunch of hardened little street shits who aint worried about nothing. Least of all carving someone up. Mental aint it, to think shit like this happens.

But there you go. Things are never what you expect them to be.

Mind you he never did throw down his wallet.


I live in a pretty back country town, and even for a back country town I live out in the boonies. The road I live on might get a car every half an hour, and I've had groups of guys twice my size get right up in my face and threaten me on it.
Now when I say twice my size, most of when it happened was when I was 12 and these guys were probably in their late teens, 2 or 3 of them usually. I'll tell you what, I was scared, I was shaking. Thankfully I managed to keep my head about me and talked my way out of the situations.

I say this because yeah, I know what it's like to be threatened, I know what it's like to be scared. I completely understand that there is tons of senseless violence.
One time, two guys (again a couple in their late teens) tried to pick a fight with me when I was 14 because I biked down their street. I was a little bit more confident in my martial arts abilities then and wasn't nearly as scared and a lot more confident, kept my head pretty easily and I talked my way out of it a lot easier. Didn't need to fight though.

Thing is I'll do anything I can to avoid that kind of situation. If he wants my wallet he can have my wallet, if he wants my shirt he can have my shirt, if he wants my shoes he can have my shoes. Material possessions can be replaced, a life really can't.

Don't get me wrong now, I know what you're trying to say. I know for sure that people won't just want my wallet, they'll just wanna hurt me for no apparent reason. Unfortunately I know that in some situations I might have to break every bone I come in contact with on the assailant until he's either dead or can't fight anymore. I know how to crush a throat, or put a man in a choke/submission hold until his heart stops beating. Hopefully I'll have the stomach to do it if it happens, though I guess in that situation I'll find out pretty quick.

BTW, that Krav Maga stuff is nasty. I want to learn it, but it isn't taught anywhere in my state.

[Rickster]

The knife attack and the attacker are all situational. I agree, one should set example of not "showing" fear. I agree that a atttacker may seem like they want a wallet or something not as threatening, but one should take anything with the mondset of bodily harm. Unless the attacker has a gun, sometimes to fight is the course. In a scant few situations, a gunman would also just be out to kill instead of robbing.

Common sense in self defense is about protecting oneself. BUT, when the threat of bodily harm is apparent.

[Nethvynn]

I come from a different school of thought. Although I understand what you said above, referring to Wildfirejoe, my own, and I mean my own personal opinion here and I would not ask anyone else to accept it because it comes from having been involved in a lot of violent shit, is that if you want to take something from me then you better be prepared to die. I may well throw my wallet on the floor, or the cash in it, but when the sicko is looking at the cash I will be caving his head in with something, a brick, trashcan, piece of wood, my elbow, what ever.

Here in the UK if someone breaks into your house the sad mindset of the police is to tell the average person to let the assailants take what they want, do what they want then for you to call the police. So essentially the attackers can come in, rape your daughter and wife, take everything you own, and you have to sit there, let it happen and then call the pigs (police). Well. I can guess what many of you might think to that.

My attitude is this. You break into my house I am going to kill you. You pull a knife on me I am going to kill you. If not I am going to die trying. I have no qualms whatsoever about taking life if I need to. But I will not under any circumstances let another individual think that they have the right or the strength or the ability to walk into my home, attack my family, or me in the street and get away with it.

I come from the point of view of war. My country, my home, my family, my wallet... they are all the same in one sense.....they are part of me and if you want to take it from me then you have to be prepared to fight to the death for it, because I will, and I will use any means at my disposal to complete the job. It dont matter whether I have to shove my fingers in your eyes, pull a shot gun on you, stick a knife into your kidney and cut the renal artery, or whether I just bludgeon you to death, the fact is dont try to take what aint yours.

But that is just my own personal mindset. Others think and feel differently and I respect the idea that material possessions are worthless compared to a life. But the thing is, its not just about the material possessions. Its the god damn principla of the matter. The fact that some sick twisted twat wants to do something like mug you, or steal from you, or rape your family member or whatever. I got no time for that shit. People like that deserve to be one place. Underground in a box.


Nuff said

[WildFireJoe]

Prepared to die? Maybe, maybe not. I think that's one of those things I'll find out in the situation. I'm barely an adult, I would really hate to die, I can tell you that much. :P

As a Catholic, I have a lot of moral obligations that a lot of people don't believe in or understand. One my my favorite moral obligations has to do with someone threatening your family.

My brother was telling me about this, it had come up during some theology or philosophy retreat he had attended. He's into all that kind of stuff.
But basically, if someone breaks into your house and threatens your family, it's your moral obligation to stop them by any means necessary. It's literally your moral duty to beat the crap out of the guy.

I could care less if a guy wants my wallet on the street. Let him have it, it can be replaced. If I have to fight I'll fight him, hopefully I won't have to hurt him too badly. Once it comes into my home and my family is threatened though, I'll go for my shotgun, or my machete, I'll go for whatever I can kill, or at least maim you with fastest.

[NoFear]

Well, its good to hear you want to try Krav Maga or something similar. THAT is worth training in, unlike that Tae Kwon Do BS.

[shisoshin]

nethvynn - whats youre take on the drunk who found himself in the back of his pub in the early morning, and the pub owner heard him, went downstairs and
took him out with his shotgun ?

[Nethvynn]

My take on that mate is simple;

I have no sympathy for anyone who drinks or takes drugs and gets themselves into a state where they can not be responsible for themselves. If you drink to the point that you are going to wake up in someone elses property and they mistake you for a burglar or something because your crashing around in the A.M. then thats basically your tough shit if you get shot or whacked over the head. Basically you should not be there.

However, it would have been the owners moral duty in owning a bar to make sure his bar was god damn empty of folks before shutting up for the night.

For me personally I have never ever been out and got myself into a state where I can not handle myself. I dont mean in a fight I mean in general. I always know what I am doing, why I am doing it, where I am going, and I know I can get myself home.

I run a security firm now and we are always dealing with morons who take themselves over the top with everything, drugs, drink, or both....whatever. They dont know what their doing or why. I see all sorts of people doing all sorts of shit. Mindless zombies most of em. My attitude is this. They get into trouble...its thier problem. Dont make yourself a target. Dont make yourself vulnerable. Dont blame others for your sad state of mind.

In this day and age we have a real bad tendancy to pass the buck so to speak. In the UK people go out every weekend and get hammered. They assume no individual responsibility for themselves or the things they do. "Ah man I was drunk, it wasn't my fault, I was smashed man" or "Jeez I cant remember mate, I was out of it, what did I do?"......Nah fuck that shit. Every individual has a moral obligation to themselves. An obligation to self responsibility and to right action.

Now I aint saying dont go out and have fun. Just dont go get yourself whacked out on booz because you can then get into a situation you cant handle. I see it time and time again. Zero sypathy. Zero empathy. Zero tolerance.

I dont know where you guys are from, but in the UK the big thing now on the so called party / club scene is Ketamin. The imbociles that take this shit now mix it with Cocaine. The nick name for this combo is Calvin Klein. So these whackos are taking a horse tranq that is snorted with Cocaine in whatever ration mix they want to take it, its hallucinogenic and a stimulant. The drug has the aneasthetic properties on the body allowing for so called trippy out of body experiences. The fact is their brain is disengaged from the nervous responses that are being sent to it, meanwhile the cocaine has sent the heart on a 180 pumping blood pressure through the roof and boosting the ego in its trans hallucinogenic state. What you have is a Zombie who dont care who or what they are, where they are, what they are doing or why they might be doing it. I am talking about people who stand in the middle of a dance floor, strip off, defecate themselves and start playing with their own shit rubbing it in like tanning oil. Of course their having a great time and we would all want to take part in their fun?

You see, this is the sad state of affairs that we have to deal with nowdays. All in the name of having fun!


Mind you here is a slightly different story.

I got invited back to a chics place one evening. I was off duty, had some free time on the weekend and been out clubbing. The thing is, what I did not know was that the chic lived with her folks. So I am up early in the morning as I always am and I am making breakfast for two. I am banging about the kitchen looking for shit to use. Of course guess who comes down the stairs and strolls into the kitchen carrying a Cricket Bat. Oh dear, the father. Fortunately because I was not drunk and out of it, I was able to do some fast talking which explained my presence. However, he was still non to pleased that his daughter at 19 was banging someone knocking 30, nor was he pleased to find I was using his expensive extra virgin olive oil to fry an egg. However, there did come a point in the near future where this situation led to asking him for his daughters hand in marriage.

I wonder what would have happened if he had found me unconcious in his lounge.......Mmmmmmm

[NoFear]

So what is the name of your security firm?

[Nethvynn]

Big Bobs Bouncers.

"did your mum never teach you not to hand out personnel details over the internet?"

[NoFear]

Sorry, just curious...

[Rickster]

Nethvynn wrote:

Big Bobs Bouncers.

:woohoo: :laugh:

At first I thought I read Big Boobs Bouncers

[WildFireJoe]

Rickster wrote:

Nethvynn wrote:

Big Bobs Bouncers.

:woohoo: :laugh:

At first I thought I read Big Boobs Bouncers


ROFL!
I did too!

Props to you Nethvynn for an excellent response!

[Rickster]

WildFireJoe wrote:

Rickster wrote:

Nethvynn wrote:

Big Bobs Bouncers.

:woohoo: :laugh:

At first I thought I read Big Boobs Bouncers


ROFL!
I did too!

Props to you Nethvynn for an excellent response!

Big Boobs Bouncers is not a security person, but perhaps a burlesque/exotic dancer.

[Nethvynn]

LOL. Tears in the eyes there.

[NoFear]

And all over a simple question...

[Nethvynn]

Some times its the simple things that work best....including getting a giggle.

[NoFear]

Absolutely...

[Rickster]

Nethvynn wrote:

Some times its the simple things that work best....including getting a giggle.

Big boobs make you giggle?

[Nethvynn]

No, but bouncers with big boobs do. Theres a few clubs my way that have some Dumptruck sized bouncers and you just cant take em seriously with their man boobs..... giggling at them is your ownly safe defense!

(Mind you I saw a skinny chap laugh at them once and one of them sat on him.....it must of hurt. Each boob alone must of weighed 80lb)

[NoFear]

Well it always is fun to kick asses of big boobed bouncers isn't it? Like shisoshin and son for example!:woohoo: :laugh:

[WildFireJoe]

Nethvynn wrote:


(Mind you I saw a skinny chap laugh at them once and one of them sat on him.....it must of hurt. Each boob alone must of weighed 80lb)

HAHAHAAA!!! I laugh... but I was always the smallest and have been sat on many times by my brother's... :whistle:

[Rickster]

Nethvynn wrote:

No, but bouncers with big boobs do. Theres a few clubs my way that have some Dumptruck sized bouncers and you just cant take em seriously with their man boobs..... giggling at them is your ownly safe defense!

(Mind you I saw a skinny chap laugh at them once and one of them sat on him.....it must of hurt. Each boob alone must of weighed 80lb)

You mean guys like on the show Seinfeld, who need Manziers? :)

[shisoshin]

as a 'knife defence' thread devolves or
trolls into, boobs and tv comedy..

[Rickster]

I guess someone is calling Nythvynn and WildFireJoe; trolls. Lighten up.

[WildFireJoe]

He kinda does have a point though, this has gotten way off topic.

[NoFear]

The real troll is Shisoshin, he has no sense of humour.

[Nethvynn]

Back on the topic of knife defence.

A very good form of defense is to find a troll, usually under a bridge. However Bilbo Baggins managed to find a group of em round a fire once in the woods. However, should you be attacked by someone with a knife finding a troll to distract them with could prove useful.

The drawback here though is the troll may see you as food and may let the attacker finish you before he does the knife wielder and eats you both.

[Nethvynn]

Nah on a serious note about knife defence, one thing that has not been mentioned on flicking through the posts is the fact that the knife is not often seen but only felt.

People talk in general about how to defend against a knife attacker. There is the poetic scene set where you and the attacker are separated by a nice distance so you have a chance to think and the ability to move. And more often than not when people discuss ideas of how to do This or That, what they generally do is discuss it in a manner that kind of treats the attacker like a robot who stands there with his hand out after he has made his thrust to the stomach.

What does not really get discussed is the fact that the knife is not usually seen. Quite often and more often than not you will be stabbed when you are confronting someone over something and it will be a friend of the person you are talking to who will stab you in the back. Literally!

If you think about it most stabbings that take place usually happen when someone is accosted by more than one person. The attackers do not brandish the knife for all to see. They dont swing it around like a flag so folks 3 streets away can hear and see them.

The knife is usually held covertly. It usually comes out only when needed. And in many cases people are stabbed when two or three people are involved with beating the crap out of someone. Many stabbings tend to be gang related, some poor sod making his way through somewhere he shouldnt, or maybe he is just unfortunate to live somewhere there are a lot of asshole gang motherfuckers. The thing is the poor sod getting stabbed just dont usually see the knife until its too late. Usually after he is stabbed and while the assailants are running off.

This tends to be the reality in most civilian situations.

It will be rare for anyone here to find themselves in a situation where they are confronted with a knife attacker, with space to move in where it is just you and him.

Of course if you are in a situation like this you can discuss a 1001 possibilities. My best advice to the average person would be to run. My second piece of advice failing the running would be find an equalizer. My third piece of advice would be to yell and draw attention to what was going on. Finally I would suggest trying to to kill the fucker in front of you or at least maim him.

But like I said, it will be rare for anyone to see the knife until its too late.

In essence there is no real knife defence. Its incredibly hard to defend against something you dont see or hear. Usually you are distracted and focussed on someone or something else. And of course the person using the knife generally does not announce his intentions. On top of that the person with the knife is normally prepared to use it and has probably done so before. This means that you are in the shit up to the eye balls.

But overall, if you do find yourself in a wildwest stand off with a knife attacker, the best advice (failing the fact you cant escape this person) is to be more aggressive than they are, be prepared to do more damage they are, i.e. use every means at your disposal to stop them breathing.

So here is some general advice that I learned while serving queen and country that I feel is relevant to any brutal assault on you or your family and friends:

When faced with an attacker armed or not who intends to inflict serious harm to you or a family member you need to attack vital points to make the opponent stop what he is doing!!!

I am not talking specialist pressure points I am talking about physiological weakness in the body. The idea in attacking vital areas (eyes, ears, throat, balls, temple, bregma, globella, 2nd and 3rd cervical, kidney etc etc) is make sure the attacker stops attacking.

1) Mess with his concentration and his ability to focus. Distraction is the key.
2) Mess with his bodily control, slamming a piece of wood into the radial nerve of the knife hand will bruise the nerve and make it difficult for him to hold the knife or weapon.
3) Mess with his structure. I.E. Break shit.

In some cases you may need to up the level and actually kill the fucktard attacking you. Not something I recommend in civi street as the asshole legal system will see you in court. However it may be necessary to snot someone in extreme cases.

A is for Airways: Asphyxiation by strangulation or trauma to the lungs filling them with blood prevents the flow of oxygen to the brain causing death.

B is for Blood: Drain them of blood or stop circulation. Attack the Heart and major blood vessels to prevent the flow of blood to the brain thus causing death.

C is for Central Nervous System: Attack the brain and Spinal cord. Maximum trauma to the central nervous system causes death or paralysis.

D is for DO EVERYTHING IN YOUR POWER to win!: Meaning do not give up, use every fibre of your being to survive. The survivalist mentality is what determines your real life chances here. Grit your teeth, dig in and fight hard. Unless you have the will to live and survive you wont no matter how well trained you are.

I hope this makes sense for folks and has brought the debate back to its original point "knife defence".

Peace and Tranquility to all.

[shisoshin]

nethvynn knows what he's talking about, and wfj states his experiences and questions openly and honestly..

but what silly noises the multi-site troll makes..
a sort of self defence mechanism...

[WildFireJoe]

What Nethvynn said reminds me a lot of a training exercise I worked at my Dojang a while back that really drove the point home about how much I don't want to be at the wrong end of a knife.

We were doing a kind of role playing street defense situation defending against knives. The guy that I was matched up against was a very experienced martial artist (20 years maybe), I'd been doing TKD for 4 or 5 years at this point, so I was learning a lot from the lesson in general.

We were working with rubber knives, and the guy who was teaching me had tucked his into the back of his belt. He said a sentence, demanding my wallet, then within the next second he had pulled the knife and jumped on me "stabbing" me twice in the stomach. Basically I "died" without even being able to react, most because I didn't know where the knife was.

When it comes down to it, my first choice against a knife is going to be running, hopefully I'll be able to see it and be able to get out in time. If I can't run, well then I'll do my best to keep him at a distance.

I know I'm going to get hurt in a fight. It's not possible not to, and when dealing with a knife, you're gunna get cut, and you're gunna get stabbed. That's the grim reality of it, and that training exercise with a rubber knife really drove that home for me.

[NoFear]

Poor situational awareness caused the defeat. As soon as you see the hand reaching for something it is time to move in and fuck the guy up, as he obviously isn't reaching for a cookie. I train my situational awareness everyday when I am out, because I always make sure I know exactly what is going on around me. I always watch out for hidden hands, hands curled up at the side, arms crossed, hands reaching for pockets, etc... This is the mindset you have to be in, always alert and ready to kill 24/7.

[shisoshin]

wfj - you can by-pass the deluded sex-missionary - this is one of his intro strategies - just google; senshido situational awareness..

unless you wish to indulge yourself in a little
hate based kill talk..

this is not - r - not to denigrate or dismiss any, form of reality or any other training for any
martial artist..

[WildFireJoe]

Well as far as situational awareness goes, I will say it is important. Knowing what's going on around you and the threat level of the people is a good thing.

But if you're walking around ready to kill somebody because they reach into their pocket (most likely reaching for a cellphone or MP3 player) then you're either a little paranoid, or you really need to move to a new neighborhood.

[Nethvynn]

In reference to the above posts;

Firstly awareness, as a general skill is needed by anyone training to be a fighter. Whether that is as a modern day (sport) Martial Artist, using pads and body armour and all that crap, or whether you train in realistic self defence, be it Krav Maga, Systema or some other modern Combat system (I quite like Keysi Fighting Method and Fedin). Essentially have a good level of awareness helps prevent you getting hit, getting into dodgy situations or being in dodgy environments where some thing is likely to happen to you (the unlit street or alley way for example).

Like I said in my previous post, the problem with a knife attack is you rarely see it coming. You may well have the situational awareness of a Jedi, and you may train it every day, and you may spend every moment in your sleep dreaming it, but I can promise you this; in a real situation, when you are dealing with 2 or 3 people and the situation starts to kick off, you wont see the one with the knife. It will happen so QUICKLY you probably wont even feel the pain. More than likely you will suddenly realise you feel weak, uncoordinated and confused. This will be because SHOCK and Adrenaline have stomped out your abilities to react, think or do anything. The only thing you will be aware of is the amount of red shit now gushing from a very serious wound.

Too many people think they are gonna be able to stand there like Steven Segal flipping people all over the place as the so called knife attacker makes big single movement thrusts or slashes with the knife. They also tend to train with knives that are around 6 inches in blade length. The reality is the knife being used in a street situation is more than likely to be a small blade. One that is easy to conceal and quick to use. Because of its small size hand speed will not be slowed. We are talking stanley knife blades, scalpals, kerambits and other such nasties.

The other thing I can guarantee, and I mean this with upmost respect to anyone training realistically for this, unless you have been in a knife fight for real you cant state how you are gonna react. You may have done your best to train situational conditions, awareness etc and even on the old adrenaline dump and methods to control it, but essentially, until you have been in the real life scenario, facing a blade, dealing with the adrenaline etc you cant dictate what you would do, how you would do it or even if you would be able to think strait.

I am not blowing my trumpet here or trying to put anyone down or anything negative, but let me speak from experience here; I served in the forces, I have been in bad places and I have done very bad things. Nothing of which I can say I am proud of it. I have watched well trained men shit their pants and freeze when the violence starts. Watched them cry. And many of them have been rookies. Never seen it before. Trained for it, have been the best at it as well, but they still are never really prepared for the real thing. The real thing is scary and can reduce your ability to cognite to nothing. The variables are too massive to consider and you cant account for everything in training, least of all the reality of reality.

The idea that you will just continue fighting for example when you are cut, or the person you are with i.e a girlfriend or something, is cut. Many will say that this would spur them on. But that is just words and bravado. The reality is usually panic! Panic because someone you give a shit about is pumping blood out of themselves rapidly. Or yourself. Shock is a powerful thing and never to be underestimated.

Now I am not saying anyone needs to go running out there to get experience in order to learn knife defence. But what I am trying to point out is that the reality of knife fighting is fast dirty and extremely frightening. The situation and variables are huge. You wont know your reactions until it is over and can look back in hindsight.

Going back to "situational awareness", I would just like to emphasise that one of the negative aspects of the adrenaline dump and tachypsychia is that you will often under go a process of tunnel vision, narrowed awareness and quite often tunneled thoughts or one track thoughts. Time will be distorted and will tend to move very quick or perhaps very slow. But your reactions will be out of sink and in a way delayed. Add to this Shock and the loss of blood and you have all the makings for a quick death.

My advice to anyone out on the street is this;

1) dont BE there! that means use your awareness, dont get into the situations or be in the kind of environments where you will exposed to an attack. For example dont walk through the backwater council estate with no lights.
2) If you are confronted with a knife attacker...RUN!
3) Failing the ability to run, CREATE SPACE!!!
4) FIND an EQUALIZER and fast. Something bigger better longer sharper whatever, as long as you can use it to defend yourself with.
5) SCREAM for help and gain attention. IF you can start dialing 999 or 911 and even if you cant speak hope the monkey on the end of the line is tracing your mobile (if you have one).
6) SURVIVOR mentality is totally paramount now. You are in a knife fight and you are fighting for your life here. Everything goes! Do what you must and show no MERCY, none whatsoever.

This would be my 6 points of advice to anyone questioning what to do in a situation involving knives.

Hope these comments are useful.

Right on to all!

[Nethvynn]

By the way my favourite weapon of choice for the pocket is the Bic Biro Pen.

I leave it to your imagination as to how to use it.

[Rickster]

Nethvynn wrote:

By the way my favourite weapon of choice for the pocket is the Bic Biro Pen.

I leave it to your imagination as to how to use it.

My favourite weapon of choice for the pocket is the Walther PPS .40 :P

[WildFireJoe]

Rickster wrote:

Nethvynn wrote:

By the way my favourite weapon of choice for the pocket is the Bic Biro Pen.

I leave it to your imagination as to how to use it.

My favourite weapon of choice for the pocket is the Walther PPS .40 :P

Lol... James Bond uses a Walther, a PPK I believe. Don't ask me how I know that.

But yeah, a properly placed .40 round will definitely stop a person with a knife.

[Rickster]

WildFireJoe wrote:


But yeah, a properly placed .40 round will definitely stop a person with a knife.

No such thing as a properly placed .40 round. :blink: A bullet is pain. :pinch: More pain than the average mugger with a knife could bare. Simply, if I shot you in the leg or arm with a .40, you will be more apt to drop whatever is in your hand at the time, using your hand(s), to reflexively grab the wounded area. :huh:

And unless I have a antiquated single shot muzzle pistol, there will be more than one of those going your way. ;)<br><br>Post edited by: Rickster, at: 2009/06/07 18:02

[Nethvynn]

May I comment on balistics here;

Firstly you are correct to say that a bullet hurts, and generally a round anywhere in the body will be smarting somewhat.

However combat is never so simple, and one can never make assumptions as to what will happen as a definite.

Firstly we need to make allowances for adrenaline and for drugs. Crack, Cocaine, PCP, Amphets etc etc.

Secondly you need to take into account distance from the foe. The rule of 21. Within 21 feet it is possible for a man to close the distance before you can draw a holstered or pocketed gun, click the safety off, take aim and hit your target..."Squeezing" the trigger and not snatching at it in panic.

It is also entirely possible, especially with high calibre guns with high velocity for the round, IF you actually hit the person, to pass right through them. Although they are fatally or badly wounded they still have the potential to deliver a life threatening wound with a knife.

So PLACEMENT of the round is everything! If you want to talk about stopping power in a weapon I would chose a Machete over a pistol in a distance less than 21 feet. In the confines of an alley, a room or hallway, drawing a gun and shooting a person would be fairly difficult, especially if they have the drop on you and are bearing down with a lot of hard sharp steel.

If you have the time to unholster, or get out your gun, take aim (assuming you remembered the safety) and squeezing a couple rounds into the person your placement is what will determine stopping power.
For example; a round in the femur bone puts a man on the floor, as does a bullet in the spine, or brain. In terms of preventing attack a round placed in the shoulder socket, will stop the swinging of the particular limb hit.

Personally against unarmoured targets I like low velocity rounds, hollow points work well. The reason I like low velocity is that I dont want the bullet exciting the person. I want as big a damage internally as possible, not a through and through round.

If you got the time to aim properly, the double tap to the chest, assuming an accurate hit will drop most people. The follow up round to the head solves everything.

However, in close proximity, in a street attack, the fact that it may well happen very suddenly, taken by surprise, etc etc you would be hard pushed to react fast enough to use a gun, assuming you walk around armed every moment of everyday. Even in gun ho America not everyone wonders around all day with a .45 in his pants cocked and ready to snot folks he dont like the look of.

So back to the reality of how to deal with a knife attack. In close proximity with a sudden and frenzied knife attack you are at odds with trying to win. Just as an example... imagine wondering down the wrong road, or taking the wrong alleyway and finding a couple skinhead crack monkeys bearing down on you just because you look the easy victim. Their gonna shiv you up just because they can. No reason other than to loot your corpse for their next fix....

In a situation like that I dont fancy "average" joes chances. I think the trained Martial Artist has maybe slightly more chance but not much. The trained Martial Artist probably would not be in the situation in the first place. But at the end of the day unless you are a trained killing machine the best thing to do is run if you can.

As a different example look at prisons and the shit that happens there. Most people who get shived dont see it. Now these are use to the environment, a lot of them are hardened criminals, and more than likely have seen their share of shitty up close violence. The thing is the person usually using the knife is an opportunist, they will wait for you to be looking the other way, to be engaged with something, talking to someone...whatever, and then Doosh, you got shived 8 times in the kidney before you even know it. No amount of surgery is gonna save you. I would rather take a bullet.

Having been involved in real conflict, having used knives and having been shot, I can honestly say that I find knives the scarier of the two. There is something very brutal, very cold and very very personal when you put 6 inches of metal into a man and twist. You feel the warmth of the blood, its smell, the resistance as the knife goes in, clips a bone, and the suction as its pulled out. The thing is the person never sees it coming, they dont hear it coming, there is just the pain as it goes in and the blood leaking out. Thats the reality of it. And no, you cant scream for help when there is a hand over your mouth or your tongue has been pinned to the roof of your mouth by the stilleto blade that has just pierced your brain. (for those of you who wish to know point of entry is at an angle of 40 degrees 1 half inches above the adams apple, up diagnally to the base of the brain hitting the cerebellum.)

Like I said before chaps in previous posts, DONT BE THERE in the first place is the best and ultimate defence against any attack!


Live long and prosper!

[NoFear]

Well that is right. My friend was in a gang and one of his chaps got shot 5 times in the torso by the pigs, but he kept fighting and they all had to jump on him to arrest him. He actually survived the wounds!

[Rickster]

Nethvynn wrote:

May I comment on balistics here;

Firstly you are correct to say that a bullet hurts, and generally a round anywhere in the body will be smarting somewhat.

However combat is never so simple, and one can never make assumptions as to what will happen as a definite.

Firstly we need to make allowances for adrenaline and for drugs. Crack, Cocaine, PCP, Amphets etc etc.

Secondly you need to take into account distance from the foe. The rule of 21. Within 21 feet it is possible for a man to close the distance before you can draw a holstered or pocketed gun, click the safety off, take aim and hit your target..."Squeezing" the trigger and not snatching at it in panic.

It is also entirely possible, especially with high calibre guns with high velocity for the round, IF you actually hit the person, to pass right through them. Although they are fatally or badly wounded they still have the potential to deliver a life threatening wound with a knife.

So PLACEMENT of the round is everything! If you want to talk about stopping power in a weapon I would chose a Machete over a pistol in a distance less than 21 feet. In the confines of an alley, a room or hallway, drawing a gun and shooting a person would be fairly difficult, especially if they have the drop on you and are bearing down with a lot of hard sharp steel.

If you have the time to unholster, or get out your gun, take aim (assuming you remembered the safety) and squeezing a couple rounds into the person your placement is what will determine stopping power.
For example; a round in the femur bone puts a man on the floor, as does a bullet in the spine, or brain. In terms of preventing attack a round placed in the shoulder socket, will stop the swinging of the particular limb hit.

Personally against unarmoured targets I like low velocity rounds, hollow points work well. The reason I like low velocity is that I dont want the bullet exciting the person. I want as big a damage internally as possible, not a through and through round.

If you got the time to aim properly, the double tap to the chest, assuming an accurate hit will drop most people. The follow up round to the head solves everything.

However, in close proximity, in a street attack, the fact that it may well happen very suddenly, taken by surprise, etc etc you would be hard pushed to react fast enough to use a gun, assuming you walk around armed every moment of everyday. Even in gun ho America not everyone wonders around all day with a .45 in his pants cocked and ready to snot folks he dont like the look of.

So back to the reality of how to deal with a knife attack. In close proximity with a sudden and frenzied knife attack you are at odds with trying to win. Just as an example... imagine wondering down the wrong road, or taking the wrong alleyway and finding a couple skinhead crack monkeys bearing down on you just because you look the easy victim. Their gonna shiv you up just because they can. No reason other than to loot your corpse for their next fix....

In a situation like that I dont fancy "average" joes chances. I think the trained Martial Artist has maybe slightly more chance but not much. The trained Martial Artist probably would not be in the situation in the first place. But at the end of the day unless you are a trained killing machine the best thing to do is run if you can.

As a different example look at prisons and the shit that happens there. Most people who get shived dont see it. Now these are use to the environment, a lot of them are hardened criminals, and more than likely have seen their share of shitty up close violence. The thing is the person usually using the knife is an opportunist, they will wait for you to be looking the other way, to be engaged with something, talking to someone...whatever, and then Doosh, you got shived 8 times in the kidney before you even know it. No amount of surgery is gonna save you. I would rather take a bullet.

Having been involved in real conflict, having used knives and having been shot, I can honestly say that I find knives the scarier of the two. There is something very brutal, very cold and very very personal when you put 6 inches of metal into a man and twist. You feel the warmth of the blood, its smell, the resistance as the knife goes in, clips a bone, and the suction as its pulled out. The thing is the person never sees it coming, they dont hear it coming, there is just the pain as it goes in and the blood leaking out. Thats the reality of it. And no, you cant scream for help when there is a hand over your mouth or your tongue has been pinned to the roof of your mouth by the stilleto blade that has just pierced your brain. (for those of you who wish to know point of entry is at an angle of 40 degrees 1 half inches above the adams apple, up diagnally to the base of the brain hitting the cerebellum.)

Like I said before chaps in previous posts, DONT BE THERE in the first place is the best and ultimate defence against any attack!


Live long and prosper!

Lets see. I did state average mugger. You are not a average mugger are you?

So, your information is partial.

And you must be impervious to pain as you demonstrate you maybe from Vulcan.

:silly:

[Nethvynn]

I think you should read my post again.

Firstly the average mugger as you stated may well be stopped with a bullet. I did say you were correct in the fact that bullets damn well hurt.

I also said that you have to take into account other factors.

I was also commenting on the ability to use a firearm in close proximity. And commenting on the nature of balastics which I have a damn good knowledge and experience of. The main thing being stopping power of a round.

In a combat situation the so called "average mugger" may well with a nice burst of adrenaline become temporarily "impervious" to pain.

So rather than getting offended, read the post again and try for once to understand what is being said rather than making sarcastic comments.

After all you did make the benign and idiotic comment that that there is "no such thing as a properly placed .40 round". In this you are incorrect and prove that you have very little knowledge in firearms or the damage they can do.

The reason for my post was to comment on the ability of a person, in close range to actually draw and use a firearm, and to deliver a shot that would incapacitate and stop a person from sticking a blade in you.

In combat there is no such thing as "Average". The assumptions that people make about such things get them killed. Do not assume anything.

More to the point any person with limited firearms training would find it very difficult under pressure to use their firearm effectively. If the mugger is "average" as you suggest, and you are "average" as you denote yourself to be with regards your knowledge of firearms then the chances of you actually hitting your "average" mugger fall through the floor.

So I would ask you again to check my "partial" information. And the fact that I was just making realistic comment on the effect of bullets and the general ability to use firearms.

As to your final comment about me being impervious to pain. I would refer you back to previous posts about what can fuel a person to act and to keep on fighting. Not only to you have to consider the chemical effects of epiniphrine, endorphines and other bodily chemicals, but you also have to consider the fact that your so called "average" mugger may well be on pcp, crack, cocaine, amphets or a combination of "average" drugs that may well make him a little more than just "average". Not to mention that he may well have a very very important reason for mugging you. Maybe he needs to feed a child, maybe he needs another "hit" of some drug, maybe he is just truly psychotic in his "average" mugger style....who the fuck knows. The fact is it is very very "Average" to assume things, because that is what the "average" person does on "average" every day.

Going back to the realism of using a firearm I would like to comment the negative effects of the adrenaline dump. Mostly I would like to refer to what they called Primary Arousal and Secondary Arousal. Primary Arousal would be the fact that someone is confronting you with a weapon of some sorts. This would be the main reason for the adrenaline to be pumping. Secondary Arousal, and this is where the negative aspects really come to bare on your frame of mind, are things like trying to unholster your secured firearm, remembering the safety (if your not trained), will you hit the person, will the bullet stop him even if you do, does he have back up, do you have back up, what happens if you get hit anyway, what happens if the gun jams etc etc. All these secondary thoughts can inhibit your ability to react. They can cause you to miss your target and suffer a cognitive overload meaning that you freeze and possibly fail to do anything worthwhile to save your sorry ass.

Of course my information here is only "partial" and only based on 20 years of military service.


;)

[WildFireJoe]

My brother carries a .357 on him at almost all times, hollow points. He got a double revolver because he figured that if he ever got into a situation in which he had to use it, it'd be a lot easier to pull a revolver out and cock, then pull out a semi-auto and take the safety off and rack the slide and pray to God it doesn't jam.

I'm kind of split on the whole carrying a gun for self-defense thing, on one hand it could save my life, on the other I could freeze and get killed it. I might just go with a decent folder.<br><br>Post edited by: WildFireJoe, at: 2009/06/08 18:12

[NoFear]

Most good semi-autos are unlikely to jam if taken care of properly.

[Nethvynn]

Like I said before, in close proximity with a knife attacker you have very little chance of getting the gun out, cocking and taking effective aim and hitting your target. Close quarter combat with firearms is difficult with the added factor that drawing a weapon, even if its tucked in your pants, can take significantly enough time that anyone within double arms length can intervene and even take the gun off you.

Let me go over a few facts about using guns;

The only method of reliably stopping a human with a handgun is to decrease the functioning capability of the central nervous system (CNS) and specifically, the brain and cervical spinal cord. There are two ways to accomplish this goal: 1) direct trauma to the CNS tissue resulting in tissue destruction and 2) lack of oxygen to the brain caused by bleeding and loss of blood pressure.

However the body has methods of dealing with Haemoragic shock, venous constriction, increased cardiac output and vascular fluid transfer, which compensate and respond to it. Generally blood pressure can be maintained with minimal symptoms until the person has sustained around a 20% drop in their blood volume.

For an average 70 kg (155 lb.)male the cardiac output will be 5.5 liters (~1.4 gallons) per minute. His blood volume will be 60 ml per kg (0.92 fl. oz. per lb.) or 4200 ml (~1.1 gallons). Assuming his cardiac output can double under stress (as his heart beats faster and with greater force). his aortic blood flow can reach 11 liters (~2.8 gallons) per minute. If one assumes a wound that totally severs the thoracic aorta, then it would take 4.6 seconds to lose 20% of his blood volume from one point of injury. This is the minimum time in which a person could lose 20% of his blood volume.

Most wounds will not bleed at this rate because: 1) bullets usually do not transect (completely sever) blood vessels, 2) as blood pressure falls, the bleeding slows, 3) surrounding tissue acts as a barrier to blood loss, 4) the bullet may only penetrate smaller blood vessels, 5) bullets can disrupt tissue without hitting any major blood vessels resulting in a slow ooze rather than rapid bleeding, and 6) the above mentioned compensatory mechanisms of the body which deal with haemoragic shock, add to this the effects of adrenaline and drugs.

Instantaneous incapacitation is not possible with non central nervous system wounds and does not always occur with central nervous system wounds. The intrinsic physiologic compensatory mechanisms of humans makes it difficult to inhibit a determined, aggressive person's activities until he has lost enough blood to cause hemorrhagic shock. The body's compensatory mechanisms designed to save a person's life after sustaining a bleeding wound, allow a person to continue to be a threat after receiving an eventually fatal wound, thus necessitating more rounds being fired in order to incapacitate or stop the assailant.

Now, like I have said before. You may well have a 9mm down your pants, semi auto, and you may be one trigger happy little motherfucker. But if you are going to be using it in close quarters then learn the correct methods. In many close quarter experiences that I have personally been involved in it has usually been my response to strike the individual first, maybe an elbow, a kick to the balls, a chop to the throat or fingers or spit in the eyes. Creating space as I back up simoultaneously drawing, aim, and let loose a double tap into the chest. My personal favourite is .45 ACP 230gr JHP. One of these in the femur or groin puts you down on the floor instantly. The thing is the JHP round means the centre of gravity is moved further to the rear of the round giving a better ballistic coeficient i.e. a more accurate round for precision work. However at close ranges even though the round is hollow point or cavity hollow point, the round may still pass right through a man. Unless it hits a nice bone of course, when hitting bones i prefer the spinal column. A round in the lower vetebrae around the 3 through to 5th lumbar and you have a cripple on the floor. Aiming for the solar plexus and the heart you have a good chance to sever or severely damage the theracic aeorta. Happy Days!

The thing is even well trained officers of the law have had trouble drawing a weapon from holster, even speed holsters. So if you are in close proximity it can usually be in your best interest to use a faster more aggressive response than your attacker. Remember if he already has pulled a knife, or has got the drop on you, you will definately not have time to whip out a firearm and use it. Not only that would you want to risk losing a firearm while trying to draw it. It is totally possible for you to sustain fatal wounds, or lose the weapon while you fumble to draw.

If we are talking alley way fights here, and close proximity street encounters, then I would certainly look to using other methods to generate the space and time in which I could use my firearm, especially if there is more than one target involved. Remember this, its not how many bullets you let fly that counts. You need to hit the target, and its precisely where you hit that determines the efficiency of the stopping power of the round. For example hitting different tissue types have vastly different effects. Take for example the liver which is not a stretchy elastic material, unlike the lung which is. A JHP round in the liver has a good chance of hitting a lot of hepatic blood vessels, the intrahepatic vena cava, not to the mention the fact the liver is large and covers a good portion of the abdomen. The brain also is not a very stretchy material, being gelatinous in nature bullets do massive damage.

In close qtr combat I would opt to carry a nice razor sharp Kerambit. Hard to disarm, devastating in their damage. They are very fast and hard to track. Multiple strikes can be made in a couple of secs that it takes to try and draw a gun. If you are talking close range in terms of 2 or 3 arms lengths from someone, then this is what I would generally opt for. Thus giving me the time to then draw and aim at other incoming targets, or shoot the one that is probably now on the floor trying not to pump out his life blood.

The other important thing about guns, if you are going to use them, is find one you like, thats comfortable and manageable for you to use. Dont go with the bigger is better philosophy. Its bullshit. More accurate is better! More accuracy more damage, more damage more bleeding, more bleeding means quicker death! Referring to the .357 which has a kick like a mule for a small gun and essentially has a big muzzle flash too. In confined areas like a room or dark alley way being blinded by your own flash is not a funny situation. Consider this !!!

Personally I would look at something concealable, something that I know will have effective and accurate stopping power if used properly. Now for you revolver lovers a .38 snubby is hard to beat. But in terms of concealment and pocket ability (pocket holsters and small belt holsters are a good choice) I would look at using the North American Arms "black widow" which is a single action 5 shot mini revolver with a 2 inch heavy barrel. Its big plus is fixed sights for such a small gun, and it weighs about 9 ounces. This gun is a good buy. The .22 jhp magnum rounds are awesome and will do a lot of tissue damage for a small bullet. The other thing is, if you penetrate the brain case there is less chance of a through and through and you will tear the brain up nicely. I also like the DA/SA Sig Sauer P 232. It takes a .380 ACP and is a nice backup weapon or personal self defence weapon. It has a 7 shot mag and weighs about 16 ounces. I do believe this quite popular with US Fed Agents.

Mind you after all is said and done, I would rather not be there. Its still the best defence.

[WildFireJoe]

I'll say the .357 has a kick, specially with the snub nose. When you stand behind a person firing one, you can actually feel a small shock wave when the bullet takes off. Luckily, my brother's can also take .38 SP, little less kick but it'll still get the job done. I think he uses .357's when he's carrying though.

I considered buying a karambit, but I couldn't see much use for it as I already carry a small utility folder which I use almost every day.

[Nethvynn]

Theres a couple reasons for buying a descent Kerambit. Emerson make a very good Kerambit. However I prefer fixed blade. I am currently having one made for me.
Firstly the Kerambit is hard to disarm. They are also reasonably fast to draw and use. If you get a Kerambit that is double edged you have the luxury of cutting both directions. I personally find this very useful when in trapping and grappling range. The other thing with the Kerambit is that it is hard to track and see, and although you can stab with it to some degree, its effectiveness as a slashing tool is undeniably good. One last factor is concealability is also reasonable. Not the best but still good enough that it can sit in the pocket if you have a folder, or will sit nicely on the belt otherwise.

But like you said, you have a knife that you use everyday and there is something to be said for that. Like I mentioned in my previous post with regards firearms, using a gun that suits you, that you know and have the ability to use and are familiar with is much better than having something that is alien in the hand. Same goes for knives, and if you are comfortable with what you have and it feels good and realiable to use then stick with it. However I would still play around with a Kerambit just to see if you like it. There are some nice training Kerambits out there that are great to train with. Its a nice feel with a Kerambit, I personally rate them as a close qtr weapon, they are very very effective that I promise you. The fact that they dont fly out the hand is a very nice factor you should consider in terms of personal protection.

Tell your brother to check out the Sig Sauer for a good back up. Or the "black widow" if he is looking for a mini revolver. Both are excellent back up weapons. The concealment factor on the blackwidow is just great, and a couple well placed .22 magnum jhp rounds really do the job well. I certainly rate this as a back up job to a .357 Or if he likes revolvers and wants a real nice effective back up the .38 special 158gr Semi Wadcutter Hollow Point. Excellent!

Personally the Sig Sauer is nice and effective, especially as the gun has smooth lines and nothing to snag on. This can be a big plus when hidden under clothes etc. Again its all personal choice and what you are use to and good with.


Mind you, if you want the ultimate in personnel self defence then the Fully Automatic Rocket Proppelled Chainsaw Launcher is perhaps number one on the list.:P

[NoFear]

Well, I agree with you Nethvynn on almost everything you just said. If I had a gun on me and had to draw it at close distance, I would most definitely attack with my body first.

[Rickster]

Gun, knife, close range, mugger, its all situational. What if the mugger had a knife, gun, baker's rolling pen, two coconuts clacking together, whatever.

Placement of round hasn't been a issue in many urban gun scenarios. (Unless it is of lower calibers and the type of round) It is all about blasting away. Spray and prey. No one is going to be concerned with a placed round. Those that get it, the only concern they have is to flee.

In my ol neck of the woods, you'd be least likely mugged/attacked with any but a gun. And of course, their weapon would be already drawn, even you you had a gun or a kermit (:)) whatever, you could not get it out.

The impervious to pain was a vulcan joke as you had made a Vulcan statement.

20 years of military service does account for the same in urban life.

I haven't seen anyone carry a machete in the streets or for a mugging.<br><br>Post edited by: Rickster, at: 2009/06/09 06:12

[Nethvynn]

The debate or issue was on trying to draw a gun from a hidden point on the body in response to having someone pull a knife on you. I was merely discussing the practicality of trying to draw a weapon in response to a mugger/attacker with a knife.

My reference to a Machete was also merely in conjunction with the idea of stopping power. The machete could also just have been a Kerambit, or other descent fixed bladed knife with a keen edge.

As to the placement of a round, placement is paramount regardless of the round you are using. It dont matter if you are using a .44 magnum or 9mm ACP or a .380 jhp. The fact of the matter is that accurate placement means stopping power. That is fact, hard solid fact. I dont wish to go into another lengthy debate about stopping power, but you either get it or you dont. I know from personal experience, having been shot, and having seen countless people shot, exactly what bullets of all types do.

But I totally agree with what you say about the fact that 9 times out of 10 if someone is going to attack you on the street they usually have the drop on you. And this was a point I was making earlier about not really seeing the knife with a knife attacker. You are usally distracted, involved in something else and will normally not see what is about to happen. If you do, then the attacker like you have said already has the weapon drawn, be it knife or gun, and you will be very very hard pushed to draw a weapon in response (depending on distance of course) in order to defend yourself.

As to the spray and prey mentality this is for untrained MORONS! These are the kind of wankers that let loose on an Uzi 9mm and take out the innocent kid in the park the other side of the street. Vermin like this have one place with their little gang mentality and thats in a box, sealed shut and burried alive.

The thing is my experience in Urban warfare is totally relevant to Urban life. I have had to work in ghettos in Africa, places like Angola and Somalia. I have watched idiots who swing an AK47 shooting from the hip. The thing is they would be far more effective shooting from cover and taking thier carefully aimed shot. Instead they miss. The recoil fucks them up and they generally aint got a clue. Hence the carefully aimed and well placed 5.56 FMJ usually puts them in the ground. Moreover, having been involved in many urban conflicts, street and house to house clearing, my knowledge of close qtr combat is pretty damn good and without blowing my trumpet pretty damn effective, as I am still here to tell the tale. There is very little difference in working ghettos no matter where you are in the world.

Again like you said, everything is situational in discussion. However the point being as your clearly mentioned is that it is impossible (almost) to draw a gun or knife in response to someone who has the drop on you. It would also be difficult to draw a holstered side arm within 21 feet and use it effectively to prevent you from getting injured or fatally wounded. The spray and Pray mentality in this situation is totally idiotic. And this was my previous point about placement. Trying to draw a gun on an attacker in close proximity, letting loose the full magazine, only to find that your finger snatching at the trigger and recoil have led you to miss the target who is now ramming cold steel into your guts multiple times. Not to mention the muzzle flash in a dark alley has the potential to blind you temporarily with some guns.

Again going back to what I said before, if a guy is holding you at gun point, you have more chance if you try to distract him and attack the gun hand than if you tried to draw a weapon. Same thing with a knife. So what I was getting at in respect to this all being "Situational" is that should you find yourself being held in alley way or a room in close proximity to someone with a gun or knife your chances are improved if you can distract and attack the hand holding the weapon, delivering quick and accurate blows to allow you the time to escape or draw a weapon if you have one. Again ACCURACY is everything. Even in unarmed combat. Hitting someone in the shoulder with your fist aint gonna do shit, smashing him in the throat or shoving fingers in his eyes will put him down. Again its about STOPPING POWER. So please please please get off this line of thought that PLACEMENT means nothing. It dont matter whether you use a gun, knife or hand, placement is everything!!!

You can argue this all day if you chose, but at the end of the day there is not a law enforcement officer, or military person in the world that would agree with you. PLACEMENT is PARAMOUNT! It means STOPPING POWER! Anyone seeking to use a gun please learn the correct methods of use. Learn how to use them up close, how to draw, how to distract, how to disengage and draw, how to use other bodily weapons first to generate space and time for you to use a hidden weapon be it a gun or knife. IF you live in the kind of environments where this is everyday life and you dont train yourself this way you are basically an idiot living on borrowed time.

Nuff said. People either understand what is being said or they dont. They can argue semantics if they like, but it wont change certain facts. Yes everything is situational, going to the toilet is situational, but it still dont change the fact that PLACEMENT is everything. Miss and you have a pile of shit on the floor!!!

[NoFear]

With a gun threat, the closer you are to the gun the easier it is to disarm the adversary. Of course, you have to distract him first.

[WildFireJoe]

This is about defending against knives though, not guns. However, I would believe a distraction technique in any self defense situation would be extremely beneficial.

But my question is, how easy is it to use a distraction technique in an actual situation? If the person knows what he's doing, how easy can you distract him? It would make sense to me that they're going to be pretty well focused on killing you. Will they even be processing anything you say/do to distract them?

[Rickster]

Nethvynn wrote:

The debate or issue was on trying to draw a gun from a hidden point on the body in response to having someone pull a knife on you. I was merely discussing the practicality of trying to draw a weapon in response to a mugger/attacker with a knife.
I agree. However, this all comes to who has "the drop". I rather someone with a knife have a drop on me than someone with a gun.



Nethvynn wrote:

My reference to a Machete was also merely in conjunction with the idea of stopping power. The machete could also just have been a Kerambit, or other descent fixed bladed knife with a keen edge.
But, we have to be realistic. This is a subjective, situational, or circumstantial, per the environment of which someone belongs.



Nethvynn wrote:

As to the placement of a round, placement is paramount regardless of the round you are using. It dont matter if you are using a .44 magnum or 9mm ACP or a .380 jhp. The fact of the matter is that accurate placement means stopping power. That is fact, hard solid fact. I dont wish to go into another lengthy debate about stopping power, but you either get it or you dont. I know from personal experience, having been shot, and having seen countless people shot, exactly what bullets of all types do.
No debate. Most people in the US who have their CCW, prefer a .380. The issue I state with placement, is most do not have the steadiness nor been in a fire fight to be able to have well-placed rounds. Thus, most guns have more than one bullet to compensate somewhat. (Not that poor markmanship should account for having a high cap mag)



Nethvynn wrote:

But I totally agree with what you say about the fact that 9 times out of 10 if someone is going to attack you on the street they usually have the drop on you. And this was a point I was making earlier about not really seeing the knife with a knife attacker. You are usally distracted, involved in something else and will normally not see what is about to happen. If you do, then the attacker like you have said already has the weapon drawn, be it knife or gun, and you will be very very hard pushed to draw a weapon in response (depending on distance of course) in order to defend yourself.
Agreed.



Nethvynn wrote:

As to the spray and prey mentality this is for untrained MORONS! These are the kind of wankers that let loose on an Uzi 9mm and take out the innocent kid in the park the other side of the street. Vermin like this have one place with their little gang mentality and thats in a box, sealed shut and burried alive.

Nethvynn wrote:

The thing is my experience in Urban warfare is totally relevant to Urban life. I have had to work in ghettos in Africa, places like Angola and Somalia. I have watched idiots who swing an AK47 shooting from the hip. The thing is they would be far more effective shooting from cover and taking thier carefully aimed shot. Instead they miss. The recoil fucks them up and they generally aint got a clue. Hence the carefully aimed and well placed 5.56 FMJ usually puts them in the ground. Moreover, having been involved in many urban conflicts, street and house to house clearing, my knowledge of close qtr combat is pretty damn good and without blowing my trumpet pretty damn effective, as I am still here to tell the tale. There is very little difference in working ghettos no matter where you are in the world.
You state "urban warfare". I state urban, per high stress crime areas in metropolitan cities. More than "little differences" Two different situations. This is what I have been trying to say all along. Your situation was war-like. I am not speaking in these terms. I am speaking in terms, per my experience and per my environment. Therefore, either of us has no course to state the other is incorrect.



Nethvynn wrote:

Again like you said, everything is situational in discussion. However the point being as your clearly mentioned is that it is impossible (almost) to draw a gun or knife in response to someone who has the drop on you. It would also be difficult to draw a holstered side arm within 21 feet and use it effectively to prevent you from getting injured or fatally wounded. The spray and Pray mentality in this situation is totally idiotic. And this was my previous point about placement. Trying to draw a gun on an attacker in close proximity, letting loose the full magazine, only to find that your finger snatching at the trigger and recoil have led you to miss the target who is now ramming cold steel into your guts multiple times. Not to mention the muzzle flash in a dark alley has the potential to blind you temporarily with some guns.
How can you have placement if they have the drop on you. This seems condradictory to what you have been saying. Or do you have a point?

Nethvynn wrote:

Again going back to what I said before, if a guy is holding you at gun point, you have more chance if you try to distract him and attack the gun hand than if you tried to draw a weapon. Same thing with a knife. So what I was getting at in respect to this all being "Situational" is that should you find yourself being held in alley way or a room in close proximity to someone with a gun or knife your chances are improved if you can distract and attack the hand holding the weapon, delivering quick and accurate blows to allow you the time to escape or draw a weapon if you have one. Again ACCURACY is everything. Even in unarmed combat. Hitting someone in the shoulder with your fist aint gonna do shit, smashing him in the throat or shoving fingers in his eyes will put him down. Again its about STOPPING POWER. So please please please get off this line of thought that PLACEMENT means nothing. It dont matter whether you use a gun, knife or hand, placement is everything!!!
ALL Situational. Distraction is pending on factors, per proximity. Hitting someone with a well-placed strik per a part of the body, is far different than a bullet. Placement of a bullet isnt everything. Most should not believe that when they draw and fire their weapon under stress, that there will be well-place first shots.



Nethvynn wrote:

You can argue this all day if you chose, but at the end of the day there is not a law enforcement officer, or military person in the world that would agree with you. PLACEMENT is PARAMOUNT! It means STOPPING POWER! Anyone seeking to use a gun please learn the correct methods of use. Learn how to use them up close, how to draw, how to distract, how to disengage and draw, how to use other bodily weapons first to generate space and time for you to use a hidden weapon be it a gun or knife. IF you live in the kind of environments where this is everyday life and you dont train yourself this way you are basically an idiot living on borrowed time.
Practcing is one thing. Being under the actual stress and mentality is another. Placement is NOT paramount. Keeping your wits IS!!! Not a LEO to agree with me? I have several whom do. You are relating a lot to military. Thus the differences we have.



Nethvynn wrote:

Nuff said. People either understand what is being said or they dont. They can argue semantics if they like, but it wont change certain facts. Yes everything is situational, going to the toilet is situational, but it still dont change the fact that PLACEMENT is everything. Miss and you have a pile of shit on the floor!!!
Yes. You can be a excellant marksman and place your rounds in nice groupings, and when the moment of truth comes, and you cannot fire nor get such placed accuracy under the mental stress of the confrontation, well, placement goes out the window. Or in the toilet as you so colorfuly stated.

[Rickster]

WildFireJoe wrote:

This is about defending against knives though, not guns. However, I would believe a distraction technique in any self defense situation would be extremely beneficial.

But my question is, how easy is it to use a distraction technique in an actual situation? If the person knows what he's doing, how easy can you distract him? It would make sense to me that they're going to be pretty well focused on killing you. Will they even be processing anything you say/do to distract them?

Well said.

Also to mention if they have the weapon placed/pointed upon a friend or a loved one. (Yes. This would actually be "placement" :) )

[Nethvynn]

My point is very very simple.

If you get a chance to draw a gun and fire, as you stated earlier in a post about the average mugger being stopped with your .40 the placement of the round determines the stopping power of that round. Period.

I am not arguing situational environments here. I am merely referring to the actual stopping power of a round.

As this post was about knife defence, and someone mentioned the fact that they would draw a gun, it seems totally logical to discuss the issue of stopping power, and the use of firearms in close proximity.

Now going back to what you said about capping someone with a .40, the so called average mugger. What I am saying is that if you Spray and Pray, you are likely to miss. Handguns are inaccurate and have poor range. They are more inaccurate over longer range, this should be common sense to most gun users. Hence most semis have magazines with 6 to 15 rounds in.

You can let loose a whole load of bullets and miss very easily.

You might get lucky and hit the person.

The fact is, a determined attacker on adrenaline can be hit with a round or two and still keep coming. He may well die of his wounds later, but not before he has a "chance" to put a blade in you.

Using a well placed round stops this. Putting a round in his femur, through the spine, hitting the brain, heart, aeorta, will have stopping power. Generally they put the man down, and he dont get up trying to hit you. Putting a round anywhere else in a man who is determined to hurt you may well probably fail to "stop" him in his line of attack, even though he may die eventually from loss of blood i.e. haemorragic shock.

You compare placement to wits now. I never once said do be aware. I was commenting on your comment which stated clearly that "there is no such thing as placement". On this I disagree totally. Placement is everything when it comes to stopping power. It is paramount to stopping power. I did not say paramount to everything else going on. You want to stop someone in one or two shots then put them where it counts. You want to go waving your gun about snatching shots and you will miss and get killed, especially if the person you are up against knows what he is doing. Again for those who use the spray and pray mentality then you will find your mag empty quick and trying to reload. This can be fatal. Chosing when to shoot, shooting accurately and knowing how many shots are left allows you make fundamental actions that save your life. Like ducking behind a dumpster to reload instead of being caught midfire thinking "fuck I am out!" and then getting snotted.

To refer to other comments about distraction. Distraction is only a tool for you to try and use to try and help improve your chances. Sure it may not work. Everything you do may not work. Again its all debateable what will. Like I said before, someone with the drop on you is going to be hard to beat. You can only try to what you can do in order to survive.

Like I said also if the person with a knife has the drop on you, I did clearly state that trying to draw a gun in close proximity is practically suicide. You would be far better to try and distract the attacker, even if that means spitting in his face, slamming a trash can at him, a kick to the groin, or whatever method you seek to use. Anything you can do to generate a few seconds will allow you to gain distance and draw a weapon if you have one. If it is a "gun" that you are drawing, you would be better off to put a placed round or two into the guy as you have far more chance of putting him on the floor. If you are just going to step back and let loose the magazine you could quite easily miss and find the guy stabbing you, or disarming you and using the gun against you.

Again accuracy is everything in terms of stopping power. It dont matter if you are striking someone open hand, using a knife or using a gun. Placement means stopping power. A bullet in the femur puts a man on the floor. A kick to the balls puts a man on the floor. And so on and so on. If you miss when you attack fine, there are lots of variables that can make you miss your intended target. The fact is you are still far better off aiming to hit something than to just hitting out wildly with no idea.

You mention that I contradict myself also. But again you dont read properly. I was commenting on your spray and pray mentality and commenting on the fact you mentioned using guns in the first place against someone who has a knife pulled on you. It was you who stated quite clearly that you would let loose with your gun and that would stop your average mugger. I have merely being trying to point out to you that you dont have a clue about what you are talking about.

I have stated quite clearly that pulling a gun in close proximity and actually hitting your target when trying to quick draw a weapon on someone is very difficult. I was also pointing out that stopping power is about round placement. And I quite clearly stated on more than one occasion that if someone has the drop on you with a knife you would be far better off using other methods, objects around you, your environment, etc to try and distract, confuse hit or maim the target first before using the gun you have hidden on your person. IF and only IF you managed to disengage the target (maybe your well placed kick to the balls or the trash can you through at him worked)and you have the space and time to draw a gun then placing a round where it counts is your best option.

I do not see where I have contradicted myself. I have merely stated what is tactically obvious. And I was merely commenting on your "average" mugger situation where you clearly stated that a round from your gun would be enough no matter where you hit him. My beef with what you said is that you assume. You assume you will hit him, you assume you can draw your gun, you assume that he is just "average". You assume to much period.

I will go back to what I said before. If someone has pulled a knife on you in the street and you are in close proximity, i.e double arms length, then your chances of drawing a gun or knife to defend yourself before he attacks you is very limited. Your best defence would be to attack the knife hand using what is around you to hand. Now if there is nothing to hand, then spitting in his face, sticking fingers in his eyes, kicking to the groin or whatever arsenal of methods you may have will be your first line of defence. NOW IF and ONLY IF you manage to strike and injure or strike and distract (pain is a distraction after all) then it is feasible for you to generate the time and space in which to do a number of things. Maybe run, maybe pull a blade, maybe disarm him, maybe draw a gun or maybe just slamming a bin into his head repeatedly until he stops moving. Whatever. But whatever you do decide to do PLACEMENT will determine your effective STOPPING POWER.

I really do not understand your point when you argue this. You can go through any number of situational conditions you like. And you can go round and round in circles about "what if this or what if that", but it dont change the fact that PLACEMENT means STOPPING POWER. You hit the right part of the body and the fight stops. Take boxers in the ring, both skilled opponents both know what they are doing. They look to place thier shots. They dont just go all out flailing wildly. They would run out of steam and get nailed. But jeez when one of them does get the good placement, the fight is over. Usually because the other chap is KO. Same thing in any fight. You get good placement with your blow and the fight is over. This is simple fact.

I am not arguing here either that there are many factors that may prevent you from gaining proper placement. I am only arguing that it is important to make the best possible aim you can. Sure the floor might be slippery, you may be nervous, you may have shit yourself, your girlfriend may be on the floor bleeding etc etc etc. The fact is if you want the confrontation to end then you have to hit the person in the right place, nice and hard.

So really I am not sure what anyone elses point really is. Now if you dont believe me about what I am saying when it comes to stopping power please go check the FBI Ballistic reports, Check police ballistic reports, check militarty ballistic reports and check independant medical examinations on ballistics and you will see that the placement of the round generally determines the effective stopping power of that round.

So please go away and read some information on the subject of effective stopping power before you come back and argue situational semantics.

[NoFear]

Well, great post Nethvynn. I was practicing LIVE with one of my partners. What we did is one has a knife and the other has a gun holstered. Knife guy attacks gun guy, and gun guy has to defend. To tell you the truth, unless the guy was a good distance away I would end up fighting him barehanded or with an environmental weapon.
It was the most effective way of fighting him off, even though I am notoriously fast with my unholstering. Usually when I did use the gun, I would run from him while unholstering. Anyways, none of this is by ANY means easy, but at least I pretty much know my tactics and principles.

[Nethvynn]

Well done mate, thats what I like to hear. Someone pressure testing methods in a situational environment to see "if" you can be effective, and if not strain away the ineffective shit to leave you with a core that works.

Like I said in previous posts, the rule of 21. Thats 21 feet. Meaning that within 21 feet it is possible for an attacker to close the distance on you and possibly stop you from unholstering, disarming you and using it against you, or putting a knife into you, or just beat the snot out of you.

And what you have just discribed in your attempts in the dojo or where you were training with your friend/partner, is totally realistic. In close proximity you will more than likely need to resort to using empty hand techniques in order to prevent the knife attacker from sticking one in you, or like you said using your environment to your best possible defence.

Anything that can give you the space and time to unholster and draw down on your target will improve your effective ability at hitting the target and making it count.

Just out of interest what holster are you using? and what effective range did you find you could quick draw and get a good aim? Although its not totally realistic we often used BB guns in close qtr practice to see where we hit the target as well. Try using a BB gun when you train; its a good method to try as you can mimic shooting someone and working out where you hit. The other thing is not snatching the trigger, making sure you squeeze, as even with a BB gun that has no recoil snatching will still make you miss. Not teaching you to suck eggs here :) but it is always a good thing to make sure your techniques are solid. The fundamental basics of firearms should never be forgotten.

Please post what sort of distances your experiencing with your draw, and what sort of accuracy you get with your shots. I have in the past donned body armour and used airguns and targets stuck to the vests to mimic shots. Any sort of martial arts body armour will suffice, or you can make some out of cheap materials. Of course there is no real way of creating the kind of pressure you would feel in a real situation, or the recoil you get with real weapons but at least you will get some idea of how you are shooting, and where the rounds are landing.

If your interested in further reading and information you can find stuff in Close Protection, Police and SWAT training etc. I know there is some extensive work done in the US with Federal agents and even local law enforcement with close counter firearms training. It could be worth your while finding a trainer who has extensive experience on the street as a police officer etc and tackling them for their advice on this kind of issue. Personally I would look to examine classes in Krav Maga that are being taught by law enforcment professionals or ex military who can provide information and training in these kind of close qtr scenarios. Krav Maga would be a good one to pressure test some of this shit.

Keep up the good work mate, sounds great that you explore these avenues of possibility.

[Rickster]

Nethvynn wrote:

My point is very very simple.

If you get a chance to draw a gun and fire, as you stated earlier in a post about the average mugger being stopped with your .40 the placement of the round determines the stopping power of that round. Period.
The placement of the round does not always equate to the stopping of the mugger. A mugger would cease or desist pending his tolerance. It is all situational.



Nethvynn wrote:

I am not arguing situational environments here. I am merely referring to the actual stopping power of a round.
The actual stopping power of a round has many factors. The primary factor is the recipient. Per above, his condition and/or tolerance. You are stating stopping power as the end all. Perhaps a kill. I am speaking in terms of stopping the initial attack. And I am also saying that the average person against an average mugger will not be able to think or be so accurate or concerned about placement.



Nethvynn wrote:

As this post was about knife defence, and someone mentioned the fact that they would draw a gun, it seems totally logical to discuss the issue of stopping power, and the use of firearms in close proximity.
Agreed


Nethvynn wrote:

Now going back to what you said about capping someone with a .40, the so called average mugger. What I am saying is that if you Spray and Pray, you are likely to miss. Handguns are inaccurate and have poor range. They are more inaccurate over longer range, this should be common sense to most gun users. Hence most semis have magazines with 6 to 15 rounds in.
Seems like another contradiction. You say that placement is key. The way I read this, is one has to be accurate to have such placement. Above, you had stated that handguns are inaccurate.



Nethvynn wrote:

You can let loose a whole load of bullets and miss very easily.

You might get lucky and hit the person.
At short range. I disagree. Something is bound to hit.



Nethvynn wrote:

The fact is, a determined attacker on adrenaline can be hit with a round or two and still keep coming. He may well die of his wounds later, but not before he has a "chance" to put a blade in you.
Not a accurate fact. A determined attacker may have attacked many people or many times. Chances are he will no longer have an adrenaline dump.



Nethvynn wrote:

Using a well placed round stops this. Putting a round in his femur, through the spine, hitting the brain, heart, aeorta, will have stopping power. Generally they put the man down, and he dont get up trying to hit you. Putting a round anywhere else in a man who is determined to hurt you may well probably fail to "stop" him in his line of attack, even though he may die eventually from loss of blood i.e. haemorragic shock.
I am not disagreeing with a well-place shot. I have a relative who actually hunts deer with a .22lr. I am saying that it is not always possible under stressful situations by average people.



Nethvynn wrote:

You compare placement to wits now. I never once said do be aware. I was commenting on your comment which stated clearly that "there is no such thing as placement". On this I disagree totally. Placement is everything when it comes to stopping power. It is paramount to stopping power. I did not say paramount to everything else going on. You want to stop someone in one or two shots then put them where it counts. You want to go waving your gun about snatching shots and you will miss and get killed, especially if the person you are up against knows what he is doing. Again for those who use the spray and pray mentality then you will find your mag empty quick and trying to reload. This can be fatal. Chosing when to shoot, shooting accurately and knowing how many shots are left allows you make fundamental actions that save your life. Like ducking behind a dumpster to reload instead of being caught midfire thinking "fuck I am out!" and then getting snotted.

It is not. On my terms, as I said, stopping power is to stop the attack, not kill. During the early 70’s, stopping power was about large calibers. Magnum wars started among firearm manufacturers. A high power caliber did not have to be well-placed to stop an attack. Simply, if the average mugger was shot in the shoulder with a .45, .357, 41, or 44, for example, they will stop their action.

I do agree, that placement is a must on lower calibers. But this is also situational.



Nethvynn wrote:

To refer to other comments about distraction. Distraction is only a tool for you to try and use to try and help improve your chances. Sure it may not work. Everything you do may not work. Again its all debateable what will. Like I said before, someone with the drop on you is going to be hard to beat. You can only try to what you can do in order to survive.
Agreed. So all of the training one may have on placement is null as one will not be able to do so under this situation, or others.



Nethvynn wrote:

Like I said also if the person with a knife has the drop on you, I did clearly state that trying to draw a gun in close proximity is practically suicide. You would be far better to try and distract the attacker, even if that means spitting in his face, slamming a trash can at him, a kick to the groin, or whatever method you seek to use. Anything you can do to generate a few seconds will allow you to gain distance and draw a weapon if you have one. If it is a "gun" that you are drawing, you would be better off to put a placed round or two into the guy as you have far more chance of putting him on the floor. If you are just going to step back and let loose the magazine you could quite easily miss and find the guy stabbing you, or disarming you and using the gun against you.
I don’t disagree on distraction. I disagree with placement as it is situational pending the person who is firing. Or how well they can shoot under stress. As I said before, all the practice and placement shooting you have will not compensate if you cannot handle the stress from the situation unfolding.



Nethvynn wrote:

Again accuracy is everything in terms of stopping power. It dont matter if you are striking someone open hand, using a knife or using a gun. Placement means stopping power. A bullet in the femur puts a man on the floor. A kick to the balls puts a man on the floor. And so on and so on. If you miss when you attack fine, there are lots of variables that can make you miss your intended target. The fact is you are still far better off aiming to hit something than to just hitting out wildly with no idea.
Again, I somewhat disagree. Stopping power is also per the type of round (large caliber or magnum class) and the condition of the attacker.



Nethvynn wrote:

You mention that I contradict myself also. But again you dont read properly. I was commenting on your spray and pray mentality and commenting on the fact you mentioned using guns in the first place against someone who has a knife pulled on you. It was you who stated quite clearly that you would let loose with your gun and that would stop your average mugger. I have merely being trying to point out to you that you dont have a clue about what you are talking about.
To state that I do not have a clue what I am talking about is dumbfounded. You seem to not understand that I agree on placement, I don’t agree it is possible for all situations. I don’t agree it is necessary on large caliber/magnum rounds. I don’t agree that stopping power has the same meaning a kill. As I said, stopping power to me is halting the action.



Nethvynn wrote:

I have stated quite clearly that pulling a gun in close proximity and actually hitting your target when trying to quick draw a weapon on someone is very difficult. I was also pointing out that stopping power is about round placement. And I quite clearly stated on more than one occasion that if someone has the drop on you with a knife you would be far better off using other methods, objects around you, your environment, etc to try and distract, confuse hit or maim the target first before using the gun you have hidden on your person. IF and only IF you managed to disengage the target (maybe your well placed kick to the balls or the trash can you through at him worked)and you have the space and time to draw a gun then placing a round where it counts is your best option.
Somewhat agree on most of this above. I disagree that the average person, under stress, will have the space, time, or clairvoyance to have such placement.



Nethvynn wrote:

I do not see where I have contradicted myself. I have merely stated what is tactically obvious. And I was merely commenting on your "average" mugger situation where you clearly stated that a round from your gun would be enough no matter where you hit him. My beef with what you said is that you assume. You assume you will hit him, you assume you can draw your gun, you assume that he is just "average". You assume to much period.
I think you assume. You assume that anyone under such situation can actually have round placement. I don’t assume I can draw my gun. I don’t assume that my first or second shot will be well-placed. I don’t assume that I could remain calm in order to be such accurate on well-place shots. I don’t assume that the mugger will go down. I will however, make every attempt to do whatever, be it distract, be it successfully drawing my weapon, and be it to squeeze off as many rounds as I can. These are but a few examplrs



Nethvynn wrote:

I will go back to what I said before. If someone has pulled a knife on you in the street and you are in close proximity, i.e double arms length, then your chances of drawing a gun or knife to defend yourself before he attacks you is very limited. Your best defence would be to attack the knife hand using what is around you to hand. Now if there is nothing to hand, then spitting in his face, sticking fingers in his eyes, kicking to the groin or whatever arsenal of methods you may have will be your first line of defence. NOW IF and ONLY IF you manage to strike and injure or strike and distract (pain is a distraction after all) then it is feasible for you to generate the time and space in which to do a number of things. Maybe run, maybe pull a blade, maybe disarm him, maybe draw a gun or maybe just slamming a bin into his head repeatedly until he stops moving. Whatever. But whatever you do decide to do PLACEMENT will determine your effective STOPPING POWER.
I will go back what I said before. I don’t disagree with a large portion of this. I have a slight disagreement of placement-per situation of both, victim and assailant.



Nethvynn wrote:

I really do not understand your point when you argue this. You can go through any number of situational conditions you like. And you can go round and round in circles about "what if this or what if that", but it dont change the fact that PLACEMENT means STOPPING POWER. You hit the right part of the body and the fight stops. Take boxers in the ring, both skilled opponents both know what they are doing. They look to place thier shots. They dont just go all out flailing wildly. They would run out of steam and get nailed. But jeez when one of them does get the good placement, the fight is over. Usually because the other chap is KO. Same thing in any fight. You get good placement with your blow and the fight is over. This is simple fact.
This is not accurate. People in ring competition are not thinking placement. They are swinging wildly at times. True, a well-placed shot will determine the glorious KO. But the KO is still situational. It depends on the power of the strike, not only the placement. (Power of the punch in this case equates to large caliber or magnum class) Also, this clearly demonstrates the condition of the recipient. Can he take a punch in the “placed area”? And, such events there are rules and gear that have to also determine the strike effectiveness.



Nethvynn wrote:

I am not arguing here either that there are many factors that may prevent you from gaining proper placement. I am only arguing that it is important to make the best possible aim you can. Sure the floor might be slippery, you may be nervous, you may have shit yourself, your girlfriend may be on the floor bleeding etc etc etc. The fact is if you want the confrontation to end then you have to hit the person in the right place, nice and hard.
No disagreement here. I have either seen or heard of people going down from being shot in the leg, arm, shoulder. Thus, they had stopped their actions. If your point is to make the best possible aim, I cannot completely agree, as it depends on the shooter’s ability, esp., under stress, i.e.


Nethvynn wrote:

So really I am not sure what anyone elses point really is. Now if you dont believe me about what I am saying when it comes to stopping power please go check the FBI Ballistic reports, Check police ballistic reports, check militarty ballistic reports and check independant medical examinations on ballistics and you will see that the placement of the round generally determines the effective stopping power of that round. So please go away and read some information on the subject of effective stopping power before you come back and argue situational semantics.
I have done decades of checking. I don’t disagree about placement. I don’t agree that it is always possible. I don’t agree, it, alone can stop someone, this, also based upon the situation and caliber of the round. In other words, placement will stop. But it is not always ideal per situation. And the caliber or class of the round will also stop. Again, for me the term, stopping, is to stop the action, not total destruction.



Here is my statement

No such thing as a properly placed .40 round. A bullet is pain.: More pain than the average mugger with a knife could bare. Simply, if I shot you in the leg or arm with a .40, you will be more apt to drop whatever is in your hand at the time, using your hand(s), to reflexively grab the wounded area.

And unless I have an antiquated single shot muzzle pistol, there will be more than one of those going your way.


To elaborate, no such thing, in my view, is that high percentages of the average shooter under stressful conditions, will not be able to have a well-placed round. I used the words pain, average, and more than one round fired.


What you call “stopping power”, taken from some of my past notes and books on the subject, is technically called Wound Trauma Incapacitation. The wound size may be a factor other than location. Technically, the mechanism of incapacitation, while still not completely understood is based on two components.

First is the permanent tissue and nerve destruction caused by the cutting and crushing action of the bullet's passage. In other words, making the biggest diameter and deepest hole that you can. The other component is not as easily as quantifiable and is the physical and emotional state of the target. A target pumped up on adrenaline or affected by narcotic or psychotic drugs can be extremely resistant to bullet caused trauma while a target full of fear and self doubt may "cease and desist" from a very minor wound. Since we cannot control the target's physical or mental state we have to just worry about doing all damage that we can TO the target.


Some will state that bullet placement is also a component. While in actuality it does play a part in the final results it is not a component of ammunition/bullet performance. It is not a factor of bullet power/energy/damage. A well placed hit that causes inadequate damage may be of infinitely less use than one that causes massive and deep damage in a less well placed hit. (Although, ideally what you want is a well placed hit that cause massive damage.)


Allow me to reiterate:

I do not disagree about placement.

I state that it alone, is not possible under every situation.

I state, that the power of the round, per its caliber, wound, etc, may also be a factor of stopping

I state, because of situations, the term stopping, in my view, has it to the attacker has ceased his actions by any means which can be used effectively.

I agree with the 21ft rule also. People with guns, per esp., CCW, tend to be too complacent

[WildFireJoe]

If you notice someone coming at you from 21 feet away though, wouldn't it make more sense to run? Instead of fumbling for a gun while the person rushes in at you with a knife, why not use the distance advantage to run away?

Now this is just coming from my point of view here, I can run pretty fast, and I have pretty good stamina. With adrenaline on top of that I'm betting I could run a lot faster, for a fair amount longer.

[Rickster]

WildFireJoe wrote:

If you notice someone coming at you from 21 feet away though, wouldn't it make more sense to run? Instead of fumbling for a gun while the person rushes in at you with a knife, why not use the distance advantage to run away?

Now this is just coming from my point of view here, I can run pretty fast, and I have pretty good stamina. With adrenaline on top of that I'm betting I could run a lot faster, for a fair amount longer.

I can be wrong, but I think the 21ft rule is a somewhat standard of not being able to draw a gun, verses a attack, because of the distance of closing the gap within the time frame alowed.

[WildFireJoe]

So within 21 feet it'd be almost impossible to draw the gun, whereas outside 21 feet it'd be plausible?

[Rickster]

WildFireJoe wrote:

So within 21 feet it'd be almost impossible to draw the gun, whereas outside 21 feet it'd be plausible?

The proven RBSD indicates that by the time you unholster or pull from a pocket, the distance would be closed. LEO nowadays are studying how to be more responsive to deter or defend until they can.

[WildFireJoe]

Ah, ok, I see now, thanks!

[Rickster]

WildFireJoe wrote:

Ah, ok, I see now, thanks!
I want to mention, Nethynn does have some valid, common sense points. Though I think he may look at too many things from a military perspective. Nothing totally wrong with it.

[Nethvynn]

Ok lets stop beating around the bush.

Going back to knife defence.

ITs really simple. In my opinion if you pick up a knife to use on me all I see is that you are starting a war. I dont see a mugger or anything else. I just see an opponent who must be stopped at all costs.

In this respect, I dont care what the persons real intentions are, you have a weapon in your hand. IT dont matter if its a gun or knife or a piece of wood. All I am concerned about is putting you in the ground as quickly as possible.

Now to do this you have to hit the CNS (central nervous system). You destroy the CNS by one of 3 methods. Direct Trauma, Bleed them Out, or Suffocation/Strangulation. Its that simple. There aint any other methods.

So back to PLACEMENT. If you want to kill someone and you want to do it quickly with effective stopping power then hitting them in the right place matters. Nothing else does. It dont matter how you do it only where you hit them.

You can argue situational semantics for the next 20 years it wont change the facts on how you kill. Trust me I know how to kill. In a violent attack the only thing I will be concerned about is hitting them quickly and in the right place. Be it with a bullet, knife or hand/foot.

I will be concerned with causing maximum trauma to the brain, spine, heart and lungs, major blood vessels and airway. I will be seeking to break limbs, tear out eyes, sever blood vessels, crush the larynx, cave in the skull, snap the spine etc etc. There will be thousands of ways of attempting to do this.

But it all comes down to one thing, PLACEMENT.

Sure you can argue all sorts of personal and situational bollocks. But the facts are simple, when it comes to killing someone quickly and effectively then placement is essential.

Thats why martial artists train to be accurate with their blows, those blows are meant for certain body parts because they are EFFECTIVE in stopping the fight. At the end of the day Martial Arts are about killing people.

Sure you can argue all sorts of spiritual shit here. But to be honest thats all bollocks. Martial Systems are about fighting, and about killing people. Every single system in the world has hundreds of methods of killing people. Every system in the world emphasises speed, accuracy, timing and power. Every single system in the world has methods for destroying the CNS. It dont matter if you do JuJitsu, WingChung, Silat, blah blah blah, all of them are about killing someone. All systems teach you to break limbs, grapple, hit vital points etc etc. Karate hide stuff in their kata as does Kungfu, as does Silat as does Wingchung and so on. When you train in Martial Arts all instructors I have ever trained with correct their students on where to hit. Why they hit to certain places and what part of the body to hit it with. The same for weapons.

The end result is killing.

Martial Arts are a battle field art. So as we were talking about knife defence in relation to Martial Arts lets cut the bullshit right here, you are talking about killing the man in front of you.

Now there are going to be those who talk about "defence" only, spiritual concepts, running away, and a whole host of other modern day liberal thinking bullshit. But the reality is this Martial Systems are designed for one specific thing and that is the "kill" on the battlefield.

So when you have someone with a knife in front of you wish to mug you, or kill you, or rape you or whatever, you are now in a BATTLEFIELD!

The only problem here is that the modern legal system fucks it all up with their liberal thinking laws about right and wrong.

Fuck the legal system, fuck the laws, because they wont help you when you have a knife in your guts.

You want to survive a deadly attack then become deadly yourself. Period!

So in order to be deadly you need to hit them in the right place. You need PLACEMENT!

[NoFear]

Well, to be honest with you we were using fake guns and a cheap no-name holster... I think uncle Mike's, noy sure. Anyways, while I didn't measure the distances, I am pretty sure the 21 rule applied here. I have done firearm training, but it was mostly on my own learning stuff from the research of experts, such as unholstering, reloading, stances, the three principles, cover and concealment, firing at stationary targets, room searching, and dry firing. I definitely want as much firearm training as I can possibly get. I am starting service in the Canadian armed forces hopefully this October, so I should get a lot of training with assault rifles, grenades, and machine guns, and hopefully qualify for sniper training. I doubt there will be a whole lot of handgun training however, so I definitely am going to travel the states while training at various schools.

[Nethvynn]

Investigate close protection training within the forces. They will provide good handgun training and all the drills that go with close qtr combat and effective fireing drills for all kinds of situations and eventualities.

Having been cannon fodder for other people though I would strongly recommend finding something in the forces that gives you marketable skills in civi street.

I got into close protection, surveilance, investigative and private security work when I got out. Did not take on any actual trades in the forces. A mistake really. Kind of wish I had gone into engineers, comms etc where you aint just in the front line taking shit from all directions.

Sorry dude, aint teaching you to sucks eggs, just voicing a couple of regrets that make transition to civi life easier. Killing people for a living does not have a massive calling in civi street unless you go black market....... ;)

[Just4Kicks]

in response to someone saying martial art is about killing

im beating my shield with my sword like in braveheart

martial art is war, people get killed, this is martial art

woman, children get killed, this war, this is martial art

man in war, woman not belong this is martial art

somolia kids kill, they martial artist

mass murders have a craft for killing, they martial artist

i think this way, if someone has mastered their martial art like the discussion of placement and accuracy, they do not need to kill their opponent with their highly developed skills. they can stop them without killing

[NoFear]

Well there always is mercenary work after...

[WildFireJoe]

Just4Kicks wrote:

in response to someone saying martial art is about killing

im beating my shield with my sword like in braveheart

martial art is war, people get killed, this is martial art

woman, children get killed, this war, this is martial art

man in war, woman not belong this is martial art

somolia kids kill, they martial artist

mass murders have a craft for killing, they martial artist

i think this way, if someone has mastered their martial art like the discussion of placement and accuracy, they do not need to kill their opponent with their highly developed skills. they can stop them without killing


You do have a good point, if you're good enough you should be able to stop a person without killing them.
However, the fact is that martial arts came into being for the only purpose to fight and kill.

And if someone is coming at you with a weapon such as a knife, you're probably going to have to kill them to stop them. I don't know many people who are good enough to stop a person trying to take their life without taking the attacker's.

[Rickster]

I agree upon the conception of martial arts. I agree upon if being atttacked with a weapon as bad as a knife, to do what is necessary. I disagree that martial arts is ALL about learning to kill.

[NoFear]

Well, they can also be used for submitting your drunk brother-in-law!

[Rickster]

NoFear wrote:

Well, they can also be used for submitting your drunk brother-in-law!

LOL. You bring up a valid point why they are not only about killing

[Nethvynn]

Situational semantics once again.

[Nethvynn]

Please define what Combative systems are for....

[NoFear]

To effectively stop an adversary, one way or another.

[Rickster]

Define ONE way or Another.

[NoFear]

Whatever works the most effectively.

[Nethvynn]

Getting back to knife defence again....

I see things very simply. Someone draws a knife on you. This is life and death, period. This is now a battlefield, its warfare plain and simple. Morality, ethics, legalities, polictics and social expectations can take a fucking jump in the river.

Combative systems were derived from the battlefield, their aim was to maim, wound, incapcitate and in effect destroy and crush the enemy, using whatever means and tactics available. Killing was essentially the main aim in order to secure your survival and your victory.

Effectively when a knife is pulled on you, you now have a choice, kill or be killed. Forget romantic ideas about not needing to kill the person because your a skilled martial artist. That is a load of liberal bollocks and a load of assumption that has no place in life or death situations. For me personally the only thing that matters is preventing the person from breathing as quickly as possible. The end aim of any martial system is therefore to kill the adversary.

Anything else that is attributed to a particular martial system is purely subjective cultural indoctrination. Be it spiritual enlightenment, self development, conquering the ego blah blah blah. Sure you can argue situational conditions... sure if its a pisshead taking a swing at you there is little need to kill him, but that is purely a subjective reason based on your moral or ethical beliefs based upon cultural norms and expectations within a legal and religious system.

Fundamentally when it comes to the battlefield, be it one filled with 100,000 men or just 2 men, when life and death is concerned, the end aim is to kill the enemy.

What people do in peacetime with martial training is up to them. If they want to train with flowers round their neck thats fine, if they want to dance around in front of little bald fat men sat cross legged thats fine also, you want to turn it into to tippy tappy sports, thats also fine. But essentially those combative systems, regardless of their spiritual or ethical designs still encorporate the essentials on how to kill. Its what they were designed for.

If they were not about killing then the combative systems would not teach you how to. They would not teach the use of swords, knives or any other weapon. They would not teach you how to break limbs or strike vulnerable areas of the body. However every system does.

The way I see it is that its down to the individual as to what he wants from the Martial Arts they study. People study for different reasons. Some for health and fitness, some to better themselves, some for spiritual and philosophical enlightenment etc etc but the end result, if you study the core of any particular system, the idea is fundamentally to learn how to kill someone. Everything else is purely a subjective desire to gain something else from it also.

For me personally I never ever studied combative systems to be a better person, or to seek enlightenment or to get fit. I only ever studied in order to become a more versatile weapon.

In todays world its down to subjective needs of the individual. Take what you want from the martial arts....the fact is your still learning how to kill someone regardless if its taught with shinto philosophy or wearing pijamas and coloured belts.

Agreed I look at things from a military perspective, but then I was required to do things that many people will have no idea about.

When all is said and done, when it comes to life or death situations, knowing how to kill and being prepared to kill is essential.

:( :dry: :whistle: :woohoo: :evil:

[Rickster]

Nethvynn, I completely understand, but not completely agree.

Yes, I've known you look at it from a military perspective, and I stated you have. I also stated, there is nothing totally wrong with this.

Martial art study is up to the individual. That is the versitility of it. The "beauty" of it. The way anyone can choose what they want from it. Not all martial arts are deisgned to kill

It is like automobiles, we ALL CAN'T like one type. Some people like fast ones, some people like ones to be heavy duty (like a truck). Some like fuel economy. Etc.

I agree, if a knife is drawn, then the situation becomes different.

I had, on more than one occasion, defended against someone having a knife. And I did not kill them.

On my knife encounters, as much of them in my environment (per non-military), I WAS not against anyone who were that skilled to be a threat for me to kill them.

You see, AS I have been saying, its all situational.

As someone here somewhat said, I had a degree of mastery of my skills to not kill.

Now here s the kicker; If martial arts is all about killing, to practice to kill someone, why would Chen Buddhist monks (i.e. Shaolin) desire to learn it?

[Nethvynn]

The Shaolin still killed people in past history.

They fought on the battlefield for the emperor and did quite a bit of killing.

The only thing is they took the moral stand point to decide not to kill, a stand point that comes from the ethics of thier spiritual practices.....but they still learn to kill and take life. They themselves might even argue its a ying yang thing, to know life is also to know death and all that yack. Probably hence why they practice healing arts as well. Many of their best were also bone doctors etc. Now if they were against killing in the first place why learn something that allows you to kill and why practice with so many weapons? If you dont believe in killing you would only practice those methods that allowed you to evade and restrain or temporarily imcapacitate your enemy, not snap his limbs and spend years learning how to strenthen yourself so you can tear flesh off of bones and ligaments, utilize any weapon, and spend a life time study secret doctrines as the myth and legends would have you believe on using Chi to kill a man.

The fact is they chose to add a spiritual meaning to the way they live life, they encorporated it into their martial system. The essence of the martial system is to develop combat skills for combat, essentially combat involves killing, and the end or highest techniques involve the methods to best do that.

Like I said the core of all combat systems is methods of injuring, maiming and killing. Anything else that is added to it in the way of philosophy, spirituality, religion, ethos, is purely circumstantial and related to the subjective culture from which they come. The core of their system will still involve killing. Whether they chose to do so or not again is purely subjective based on their moral beliefs and ideals, religious ideas, legal pressures etc.

There are not many martial arts that dont involve methods to kill. Everything from Aikido, Aiki Jitsu, Kungfu, Wingchung, Karate, Silat, Escrima, Krav Maga, Systema all involve Methods at some level that involve having the ability to kill. What belief systems people chose to follow, and their morality is purely a subjective thing. All cars are not the same, all martial arts are not the same, I totally agree. But all cars do use a fuel source and all cars involve motion to get you from A to Z. Everyone one of them will be a different experience, but essentially you are still learning how to kill.

I would say in your knife defence situations your decision not to kill the person is a moral one based on beliefs and ethical codes that you chose to live by. Maybe your a police officer who is subject to representing and upholding the justice of a legal system that prevents you from killing when someone has been disarmed. Who knows, and I am not here to pass judgment on your ethics or morals. I am merely stating the core aspect of any system is teach you to kill. Not that you must kill. Moral choice is down to the individual.

For me personally I hold no such moral obligation. If a person choses to lift a weapon against me, unprovoked, and is willing to use it then I have only one recourse but to take. Morality and Mercy become Meaningless. I would chose to take the persons life. There is perhaps only one reason why I would not, and that was if it was a situation that was high visibility to civilian eyes where I would find myself being prosecuted in a court of law. Other than keeping my own ass out of prison I have no hesitation about doing what I see as a favor to the community.

I mean lets be honest here one less drug addicted knife mugging retard makes the world a better place. Amen.

LOL....

PS, just out of interest apart from Judo or Tippy Tappy Crappy Tae Kwon Do Nonsense, and I dont mean this sarcastically, but which arts would you consider combative arts that do not involve killing people at some point? Even Judo is a sport derived from JuJitsu. And even forms of wrestling were derived from the battlefield. You could argue modern sport arts are not about killing, but then they are sports and not real combative systems anymore.

[Rickster]

Not all martial arts nowadays are about learning to kill.

I agree, this was the basic intention of martial arts.

If I am taught 20 ways to break the arm of a knife assailant, I rather break his arm than kill him. Those 20 methods of breaking were not 20 methods of killimg.

[NoFear]

You are right, no actual combative system exists that does not take into account at some point the use of lethal force.

[Rickster]

If Shaolin people killed, they were not authentic Shaolin monks.

I am not taking a stand upon the morals to kill. I am not saying that one should not kill or be killed.

Weird how we changed the term from martial arts to combative systems.

[NoFear]

Because a combative system is a TRUE martial art.

[Nethvynn]

Towards the end of the 5th Century CE (about 440 years after the establishment of the White Horse Temple) an Indian Warrior and Buddhist Monk was traveling through China following the path of, and teaching Buddhism. He had a great heart and mind helping and guiding anyone who wanted his help. His great wisdom and kindness was such that it came to the ears of the Emperor who summoned him to the Palace . Buddhabhadra by name, which was difficult for Chinese to say, was renamed to Batuo spent some time at court. He so impressed the emperor with his Wisdom and Buddhist interpretation that he was offered a permeant office and place at the Palace. Buddhabhadra proposed that his teaching may be better served if he were in a more accessible place. The Emperor offered them several hectares in the province of Henan, in the Sacred Mountains on the side of Shao Shi (Shi meaning Mountain). They chose a spot in an area of Lin (Lin meaning Young or New Trees) as the place for the Temple; and this came to be the name of the Temple >Shaolin ( Sillum in Cantonese) Temple.

At around th same time a prince was born in a small tribe of Southern India (As a prince, he was a member of the Warrior Class, some assert he was of the Brahman Class), thus schooled in the martial arts). He converted to Mayhayana Buddhism at an early age and became the student of the Monk Prajnadhara, who was the 27 th lineage holder of the Chi'en (Zen in Japanese) Tradition. His training was in Mayhayana Buddhist practices, which requires hard exercise and training as part of the meditation and studying.

His training lasted many year and until the death of his teacher at which time he became the 28th Patriarch of Indian Buddhism and was named Bodhidharma. Before Master Prajnatara died he tasked Bodhidharma to spread Buddhism to China.


He traveled east in to Southern China by ship arriving in Kwangzhou (Canton) in 526 CE. Much like his famous predecessor Buddhabhadra, Bodhidharma made an impression on many Chinese. He also came to the attention of Emperor of the day and was invited to Nanjing. That is where the similarity stops as Bodhidharma stark teaching offended the Emperor. He had to leave.

During his time at court, Bodhidharma was renamed to Tamo, as Bodhidharma was very difficult for the Chinese to pronounce. At this time he had also heard of both the White Horse and Shaolin Buddhist Temples. Whereas not much is know if he visited the Whitehorse Temple, there is a bit know about his visit to Shaolin.

When Damo arrived at Shaolin he again made his stark views know. He commented most derogatorily of Shaolin's weak, sickly ad lazy Monks. As a true believer of Mayhayan Buddhism and master of staff and bare hand skills, he was a firm believer of the need for exercise to reach enlightenment. It was not surprising that the Shaolin Monks were not happy to be so confronted and, like the Emperor, asked him to leave. Be it because of his previous relative failure with the Chinese Emperor or be it that he had enough of traveling or be it that he really was disgusted with the conditions at Shaolin, he did not leave. A small cave, that is still there, some 30 minutes walking distance from Shaolin became his new home

Damo retreated to this cave to meditate on the problem(s). Many legends suggest he sat in this cave facing a wall for 9 years. Whether it was nine years, months or moons, he did spend quite some time in this cave meditating. It his time in the cave, he had a few encounters. Some of the Shaolin started visiting him and in a way he became an oddity. He also met She Kuang, possibly a Shaolin student or visitor who came to his cave to see the strange man. There are several accounts of what She Kuang did to became Bodhidharma's 1st disciple.

Bodhidharma did eventually gain entrance to Shaolin. There are also mutiple legends on this matter and there are many variations. One of the most popular is that he sat facing the cave wall for 9 years straight. The Shaolin were so impressed with his determination and skill that they invited him in even providing him with his own quarters (this is significant as the Shaolin Temple never was that sizable).

Soon after entering Shaolin he defined three types of exercises later transcribed by monks as;

"The Muscle Change Classic" or "The Change of the Sinews,"
"The Marrow Washing"
"The Eighteen Hand Movements later named The Eighteen Lohan Shou (Lohan meaning enlightened and Shou meaning Hands/Exercises)

This marked the beginning of Shaolin Temple Kung Fu ( kung fu in Shaolin meaning hard work and perfection not martial or war art). Damo later devised some self-defence movements based on his knowledge of Indian fighting systems. (possibly introducing Pole as a weapon as this was part of his training and is often depicted with it.)

Towards the end of the time of the Northern & Southern Dynasties, around Emperor Wu Di of the Northern Zhou Dynasty called for the "abolishment of Buddhism". In 574 and again in 577, Emperor Wu had Buddhist and Taoist images destroyed and their clergy returned to lay life. He believed the temples had become too rich and powerful, so he confiscated their land and gave it to his own soldiers. During this time, the Shaolin Monastery was closed, Shaolin Dispersed. This was considered the 1st and 2nd persecution of Buddhism (looking at it only from a Buddhist perspective) but there were to be two more such purges.

A new Dynasty and a new start, the new Tang Emperor himself believed in Buddhism and allowed Shaolin to be rebuilt and reoccupied. Shaolin understood that it needed to be able to manage their own protection, not being able to rely of the 'good will' of the local governor. A higher focus was put on the training of Monks in martial art as an exercising. As they were not skilled warriors, they started interacting with the outside by inviting warriors and local masters to visit and train with them. The Shaolin Monk skills came to be respected and well know. This is evidenced by the Emperors call for aid in freeing his captured son..

General Wang-Shih-Chung had gathered a large army in an attempt to oust the Emperor from the Imperial throne and start a new Dynasty. Li Shimini, the Emperors son, was sent with an army again the usurper. Wang-Shih-Chung forces managed to capture the Emperors son and inflicted great damage to the Tang army. The General also threatened to kill the Tang Emperors heir if he did not desist with his attacking army. It seemed like a no win situation.

Why the Tang Emperor sought the help of Shaolin is not entirely clear, but he did. He sent a message to Shaolin, asking for help to save his son. This was a heavy burden for Shaolin as it went against the foundation of their Buddhist beliefs, to cause harm to humans for any reason. Yet the Emperors 'request' could not be ignored.

It is recorded that Shaolin sent 13 Pole Fighting monks to help free the Imperial heir. The Shaolin devised a Dawn Attack raid wherein they silently entered the Army just before dawn, removed any resistance, creating some damage (legends suggest they killed 10,000 soldiers but .. .) and escaped with the Emperors son. This successful raid causing much damage and demoralizing the troops which broke the army and allowed for Royalist troops to 'clean up'.

With his son and throne safe again, the Emperor was pleased and gifted Shaolin with greater lands, regular funds and the Royal Grant of allowing Shaolin to have up to 500 Warrior Monks (Soldier Monks, Seng Bing). This again, put Shaolin on the Chinese Political and Buddhist map. This improved even further when a few years later the old Emperor died and his (by the Shaolin saved) son became the new Tang Emperor. A very close relationship between Shaolin and the court was established, which would last until the Buddhist persecutions towards the end of the Tang Dynasty.

With Shaolin becoming so renown, many, many young people wanted to become Soldier Monks; many wanted to learn Shaolin Kung Fu and many just wanted what ever they could get. Shaolin seemed the 2nd center (beside the Imperial court, that was a bit more difficult to access than Shaolin) of the Chinese Universe. This had both Advantages and disadvantages.

It was a rich young noble an experienced martial artist, found his way to Shaolin and entered the Shaolin Monastery. He assumed the name of Chueh Yuan and devoted all his studies to the further development of Shaolin Kung Fu and fitness training. He was talented and had Shaolin as his play ground and within a few years, he was able to revise the unstructured Kung Fu training into a structure of 72 Fists, Movements, Martial Art Skills. These were very successful, both to train and to use, very effective and Shaolin adopted the the 72 Fits to is 18 Hands exercises. They were very effective for both internal and external fitness; and incorporated strategic elements and thought. These 72 Fists were "very" effective; possibly too effective and not quite in line with original Buddhist non-injuring principles (any harm done to other will be returned 10 fold on the giver).

On his travels, Chueh Yuan witnessed a bandit attacking an aged person. He saw how the attacker landed an apparently very strong kick seemingly, to the body of the traveler with very little or no effect. The old traveler only used minimal effort against the bandit's leg sending the attacker crumbling to the ground. This maneuver impressed Chueh Yuan enormously. Considering that Buddhist Shaolin needed a style that was more in line with Buddhist principles (not to do violence to others), this seemed like a good start. He introduced himself to the senior and inquired if he would be able to teach this art to him. Much to his surprise the old man did not know much of what he did and referred them to the local master Pai Yu-feng.

Pai Yu-feng was a friendly 50 year old and Chueh Yuan convinced him to accompany him back to the Shaolin temple. Over the next few years they, using the 18 Hands of Lohan, the 72 Fist Styles together with Pai Yu-feng's pressure point grappling/wrestling techniques' and redeveloped the Shaolin 72 Fist Kung Fu into the 170 exercises, a mixture Striking and Controlling, Evading and Countering. This was possibly the first official introduction of Vital Points to martial arts (it is now common for involved martial artiste to study the human body, meridians, joints, major organs and Dragon Points). This form of Kung Fu would endure for over 400 years before any significant changes were made

As a well financed, well protected and by the ruling Dynasty favored temple, Shaolin was now the most famous Buddhist Temple. It was the place to be; Scholars, Martial Artists, Healers, Masters of Craft and Imperial Soldiers, Artists were now fairly common in Shaolin. A village developed around the Temple (as the Temple proper was actually quite modest). Some of these were invited as Honored Guests, information and teaching was exchanged.

As Buddhists teaching and sharing of knowledge and wisdom was the gift of Buddha. This resulted in the school having teaching and lecturing facilities in addition to the normal training facilities (much like modern Chinese schools are now managed).

The Monk Soldiers also had a reputation to keep but could not really 'pick fights'. Friendly competitions were sponsored by Shaolin and the Soldier Monks had opportunity to test their skills against the best. Shaolin training including using weapons but not for the purpose of using these weapons against other humans (Using the Pole was already a burden on their spirit); these weapons were learned and then put aside. They learned how to defend against weapons. They trained many weapon styles as part of their regular fitness training. With their exposure to Imperial Officers and having the time to spend in training, their skills grew. Shaolin would again be asked to use these skills in the name of the Emperor.

Before Shanghai was the major sea port and trading center that is is today, Fukien (Fujian) was the major connection trade with over 2000 years history, It was perfectly situated as a port to trade with Taiwan, Korea, Japan, India and the rest of the World. Fukien (Fujian) history extends well back before the dawn of Chinese civilization as major population and trading center, possibly even with Arabs, Romans and Greeks ate various times in history. In the time of the new Tang Dynasty, it was in the grasp of Pirates and Lawless. Military intervention from the Imperial court had very little effect, the Pirates were wealthy and were able to bribe any official interfering; or kill them (one can see where accepting bribes would have seemed the preferred option to the officials; and it was a long standing culture of Chinese politics; bribes and survival that is). Remembering the success of the 13 monks, the new Tang Emperor asked Shaolin for help.



698 CE

Guanghua Temple in Putian,
built 558 CE



Unearth around 1900, this temple is believed to be one of the Fukien Temples in which Shaolin resided.


Shaolin decided to send 3 of the original 13 Monks (Dao Guang, Seng Man and Seng Feng), together with 500 Soldier Monks to help solve the problem. Shaolin could not easy be bribed and, theoretically, as Buddhists, were not intimidated by threats of death. As monks they also had the support and trust of the common person. What they specifically did is not know, but what the outcome was is. Although they did not eradicate the Pirates entirely, they reduce their influence in Fukien to the point where Imperial Office and Law was able to manage this centers of commerce. Fukien was back in the hands of the Imperial Court and paying good taxes again.

This made the Emperor happy and gifts were again bestowed on the Shaolin temple including an even greater area of land around the mountain. In addition to thanking Shaolin which incidentally was also a way to keep his Shaolin influence in Fukien, he gave Shaolin their own Temple. Records show that the initially gifted temple was in Putian, only 100 years old but a bit small. As the Shaolin outgrew this location quickly, they relocated to other temples. Artefacts and records found as recently as in the first few years of 21st century, that they also occupied temples in Guandong (Canton) and Hebei. In the years of 874-8 CE, still during the Tang dynasty, a Shaolin specific temple was built. But this was to be a short lived pleasure. Buddhist and Temples were in for a bad period.

With the military and martial art successes and having officially been given leave to have 500 Seng Bing, Soldier, Warrior or Guard Monks, Shaolin training was now very involved and rigorous for all monks. It may have become very focused on the martial art aspect and have 'forgotten' it roots of Yoga and Breathing. Because of Shaolin fame, reputation, wealth and Status (even today Shaolin Trained Body Guards earn up to twice the normal protectors wage), many young people wanted to gain entrance and be part of the reputation (Gain Face). Too many wanted to be associated with the Shaolin reputation. Shaolin needed a way to separate the clowns from their future monks.

Shaolin developed a stricter process of choosing who could study with them. For some, this was just a greater amount in donations to Shaolin, lacking that other entry exams were included. Speculation on this is rife but it was clear that lacking excellent funding, gaining entrance into Shaolin was tough. Some records suggest that there was a week of entry per year. That some people stood in line well before the day of choosing, sometimes weeks before, much like, at today's very popular events ticket sales (even days and weeks, as some traveled several months to get to Shaolin). Once you were in, irrespective of age, you spent several years on kitchen duties which included all styles of menial tasks, the famous Water Carrying (yes there is a water flow about 150 meters down a hill from Shaolin), sweeping, fixing, mending, serving, etc. On the upside, they also received a very good educations including Calligraphy (writing with the brush) skills, basic math's, Buddhism (of course, possibly principles of Confucianism and Taoism), Poetry, History and Music (the 6 Noble Skills).

It was a very hard life but it was of grand benefit to everyone. For Shaolin, it sorted out the best for possible full training as a Shaolin Monk. For the so accepted, if they became Shaolin, that was the Grand Ultimate. If not, the education they received put them in the top 1% of Chinese Education; that about how many Chinese per population could write, let along being taught the other Noble Skills. It was a Win-Win situation for all around. Those who successfully completed their 'Kitchen' period were still not fully accepted. They needed a mentor, a Monk who would accept each graduate and 'take' them into their fold. This was to ensure that 'right minded' were chosen not just tough individuals. Then the second phase of training would begin with greater focus on Buddhism than ever before. Aside from Buddhist studies, many Shaolin has their areas of expertise, areas where they mastered an aspect of the Noble and other learning's. The Soldier Monks also chose from the batch of graduates to replace retired and killed Soldier Monks.

Although it is dramatized in movies, Shaolin thus chosen would be brought to the brink of exhaustion through their training. Records indicated a very tough regime of physical and mental exercise with only 4 hours sleep most nights; long runs before breakfast, very hard martial art exercises, chi kung and endurance training on top of their Buddhist studies and obligatory daily meditations. This would go on for several years. Those who failed were not allowed to stay in Shaolin and were asked to leave (although their future was secured with this level of training and education). Those that endured, were accepted (note - the branding of forearms by the lifting of a cauldron of a pedestal was wildly popularized and sometimes accepted as fact. As no clear records exist of any such test and Buddhism does not allow really allow the permanent marking of human bodies, this version can be discounted unless some historical records are found).

Military eunuchs had controlled the government for some time. They had put the previous emperor, Wuzong's older brother Wenzong, under house arrest, where he apparently drank himself to death. The eunuchs had also murdered the last two emperors before him, Jingzong and Muzong. Meanwhile, the Uyghur Khanate was attacking China from the northwest. Imperial finances were in trouble as most provinces were not paying any taxes to the central government. Reforms and tough action was needed.

With the help of his uncle, the future Emperor Xuanzong, Wuzong was able to stage a coup against the eunuchs and ascend to the throne. He and his prime minister Li Deyu were able to curb the eunuchs' power. Li Deyu took personal command of the war against the Uyghurs and won an important victory in 843. But they still did not have enough money to 'turn' China around. They needed funds!

Buddhist monasteries had become rich and were tax exempt. Many people entered the Buddhist community to escape military service and tax duty. The increase in the number of temples, priests and nuns put even more financial pressure on the state (added to the wars, internal battles and politics). With the rise of the Neo-Confucian's who wrote manifests against the foreign religion (including Buddhism), believing its egalitarian philosophies destroyed the social system of duty and rights of the upper and lower classes. He had reasoning and an amount of popular support for his next reform.

In 845 CE the "Great Anti-Buddhist Persecution/Reform" was launched. His reasoning was that to reduce foreign influence he needed funds for his army (which than would enforce tax law), which would be raised by stripping all Buddhist clergy of all possessions, temples, literature, properties and such.

Shaolin were either forced into into lay life or into hiding. During this time, followers of Christianity, Islam, Judaism and other non Taoist beliefs were persecuted as well. The persecution lasted for twenty months when Emperor Wuzong died and was succeeded by Emperor Xuanzong. On his ascension he and put forth a policy of tolerance in 846. For a few year it seemed that this had restored the Tang, yet.

In 859, a large-scale peasant uprising launched by Huang Chao again severely attacked the Tang regime. Although the revolution failed to unseat the Tang, later emperors were unable to restore the dynasty's power. As central authority weakened, nomads on the frontiers gained control over large portions of China and generals were able to establish regional kingdoms. In 907, the last Tang emperor, Emperor Ai was forced to abdicate by Chancellor Zhu Quanzhong, who afterwards changed the state title into Liang, finally putting the ever powerful and mighty Tang Dynasty to an end 907 CE. A time of unrest started.

Between 907 and 960 there was a mess of Dynasties; some lasting as little as 3 years but none longer than 17 years. In fairly rapid succession the Later Liang Dynasty (907 to 923), Later Tang Dynasty (Shatuo Turk 923 to 936), Later Jin Dynasty (936 to 946), Later Han Dynasty (947 to 950) and Later Zhou Dynasty (951 to 960). As Tang power ebbed by the center of the eighth century CE Domestic economic instability and military defeat in 751 by Arabs at Talas, in Central Asia, marked the beginning of five centuries of steady military decline for the Chinese empire. Misrule, court intrigues, economic exploitation, and popular rebellions weakened the empire, making it possible for northern invaders to terminate the dynasty in 907. The next half-century saw the fragmentation of China into five northern dynasties and ten southern kingdoms. The dispersal of political and economic power that marked the collapse of the Tang dynasty resulted in a brief period of disunion known as the Five Dynasties period (AD 907-960). Not only did five short-lived dynasties follow one another in the Huang He (yellow River), valley of North China, but ten independent states were established (AD 906-979), most of them in South China. Although foreign invaders did not overrun China during this period, the Liao dynasty (AD 916-1125) of the Khitan Mongols, based in Manchuria and Mongolia, was able to extend its influence over parts of northern Hebei and Shanxi provinces. Beijing became the southern capital of their joint Sino-Khitan Empire.

In 960 CE, a new power, the Song Dynasty (960-1279 AD), reunited most of China proper. The Song period divides into two phases, Northern Song (960 to 1127), and Southern Song (1127 to 1279). The division was caused by the forced abandonment of north China in 1127 by the Song court, which could not push back the nomadic invaders. The founders of the Song Dynasty built an effective centralized bureaucracy staffed with civilian scholar-officials. Some writings even suggest that the founder of the Song Dynasty was a Shaolin Graduate or Layman and was very pro Wuji (martial arts) as a form of health giving exercise.

It was also in this time that Kung Fu Animal styles begun to flourish. With the Song Dynasty support for wuji (martial arts) many kung fu styles came into existence; styles such as Rooster, Toad and Dog were not uncommon and some are still around. But there were also other such as 10,000 bees, Mantis, Tiger, etc. With Shaolin's system of learning from travelers, many of these styles found their way into Shaolin. At this time in 1044, the "Grand Classic of Martial Arts which included many aspects of military strategy, case histories and fighting styles was published. Many Archery and martial art schools are recorded during this time. Martial Artists would earn their way by providing shows and exhibitions in fighting, wrestling, archery and strength demonstrations...............and history continued........

The fact of the matter is that the original teachings of Shaolin were ones based in Yoga and Meditation. They did not originally study Martial Arts. They studied how to exercise the body and thier early system could not in anyway be called a MARTIAL or COMBATIVE system.

However, despite the fact that the Shaolin did not have the personal wish to use violence due to their belief system.... their belief system being in my opinion something they indoctrinated into the combat training or vice versa, when commmanded by the emperor legend has it they killed 10,000. Now these were the original shaolin.

Despite their religious ideals they still killed when commanded by a higher authority.

And they did so on more than one occasion.

The fact of the matter is that a system that teaches perfection of the mind through exercise of the body is not a Martial Art. A MARTIAL art is exactly what it is....MARTIAL, from the word MARS, the GOD of WAR. Martial Systems, regardless if you drown them in spiritual bullshit, are still about harming and killing other people.

The will to do so, or the intention to do so, or the need to do so is purely a subjective matter. Like you said you would rather break the assailants arm than kill him. This is purely subjective.

Martial Arts are Combat Systems. In the case of the Shaolin they chose to use this in conjunction with very strong spiritual teachings. But despite this they still trained in weapons, they still trained in Chin Na, Grappling, Breaking, and Death (vital point) techniques. And on reflection of their history chose to follow the requests of their emperor, and in true shaolin style kicked a lot of ass. And maybe for kicking all that ass they got what they deserved, Karma stepped in, and look what happened later on, their temples got raided and burned to the ground by the very Emperor and Political System they chose to kill for. Ironic that.

To finish off with, MARTIAL ARTS are COMBAT ARTS. Any system that involves methods of harming individuals is a COMBAT SYSTEM. To be honest if you dont like hurting people then people should go and do a keep fit class or study Yoga. If you want to learn to defend yourself in serious combat then you study combat, you study the Martial Arts. Its that simple.

Any system that dont involve hurting someone is not a martial system and should not call itself a martial system. Fundamentally they should learn to define the use of words first before using them to define their methods.

Fighting is fighting at the end of the day, it dont matter how you dress it up, dont matter what beliefs you have, dont matter what politics you follow, the fact is learning to fight involves harming people. The right to refrain from harming is a subjective ideal. Combat arts in this respect teach you to kill. Its is up to the combatants to define for themselves the need to kill based on thier beliefs and ethics.

Like I said before, for me personally the moment someone pulls a knife on me they are starting a personal war. My own beliefs are devoid of ethics and morality, and I have very little mercy for such persons. The fact that has chosen to threaten my life is enough impetus for me to take thiers. The only reason I would chose not to would be one based on self preservation, i.e. if I thought I might get caught on CCTV or something and end up in prison. But if I new I could get away with it I would chose to kill the person. The other thing is, if I kill the person then they dont have the chance to mug or attack someone else who might not have the ability to defend themselves. In my country the legal system does not prosecute bad people anymore. If you stab someone and kill them you would be lucky to get 18 months inside, if you are under 18 years of age you are more than likely to get community service. Its bullshit. I say kill. Simple do the world a favor and remove the scum from the earth. They chose to use a knife, it seems fair to me to take it off them and use it on them.

[Nethvynn]

The only other time I would chose not to kill is if I needed to interrogate the person. But then dieing would be better for them to be honest....

[NoFear]

I like that logic, kill the scumbags, like a vigilante.

[47MartialMan]

Martial arts is about fighting. I agree with someone else here saying if you had any good skills, you do not have to kill them.

All of this Shaolin fighting stuff is crap. No matter where you copy and paste it from. I agree that the event changes when a knife is present. Somone can either defend themself or bleed.

Most of us here, do not need to go in the definiton or semantics of what martial means.

It will mean something different to the person practicing whatever.

That said, I do not agree upon these too artsy fartsy types that practice against rubber knives and what I call starched arms. These are when they practice as the attacker lunges straight forward with the knife arm being straight out. And the defender does a serious of strikes or manuevers, as if this attacker is going to stay there and not flinch.

The attacker's body is going to move or behave each time you do something.

The way I see it. Someone with a knife has to go down. If by accident he is killed, all I can say is oopsie.

[Nethvynn]

Martial Arts still teach you to kill. Its what they were ultimately designed for.

The decision not to kill is purely subjective.

[NoFear]

Besides, those who kill liberate themselves in a certain way, as a new independence is now theirs. It separates them from the masses of sheeple and weaklings who are blinded and controlled by the powers that be.

[Rickster]

It also puts them in jail, where they will get a different type of liberation. :)

[NoFear]

If they get caught, that is...

[Just4Kicks]

i know someone who had defended agianst another with a knife. he brutally injured that attacker. a witness came forth and the victim in this case was sent to jail for 10 years. are we to assume that a knife attacker will be alone? are we to assume there will be no one else around or looking? are we to assume we will know know who the attacker is, perhaps not a total stranger? someone mentioned situations

[NoFear]

Well, ultimately you have to survive.

[Rickster]

I agree. But it is situational and of environment

[NoFear]

But even then, there is sometimes no choice.

[NoFear]

But even then, there is sometimes no choice.

[NoFear]

But even then, there is sometimes no choice.

[NoFear]

But even then, there is sometimes no choice.

[NoFear]

But even then, there is sometimes no choice.

[NoFear]

But even then, there is sometimes no choice.

[NoFear]

But even then, there is sometimes no choice.

[NoFear]

But even then, there is sometimes no choice.

[NoFear]

But even then, there is sometimes no choice.

[NoFear]

But even then, there is sometimes no choice.

[NoFear]

But even then, there is sometimes no choice.

[NoFear]

But even then, there is sometimes no choice.

[NoFear]

But even then, there is sometimes no choice.

[NoFear]

But even then, there is sometimes no choice.

[NoFear]

But even then, there is sometimes no choice.

[NoFear]

But even then, there is sometimes no choice.

[NoFear]

Fuck this computer... I hope everyone understands that this was not intentional.

[Rickster]

Yeah-Right (Sarcasim)

[NoFear]

Why the sarcasm?

[Rickster]

Because. I get disgusted that you do have some good posts, but you have to go off on other tangents not pertaining to a particular subject at hand. If you can just chill and though you post your opinion, let these be more meaningful rather than bable and insult.

[Nethvynn]

Dont see any problem with Nofear. Posts are relevant and he aint insulted anyone as far as I can see.

Legal system is full of pussies and politically correct retards who think bad people deserve a holiday in Tahiti.

In life or death situations involving you or loved ones you do what you need to do in order to live.

I personally have no qualms with killing, and would do so in the blink of an eye. Fuck the legal system, I would rather go to prison than to let someone harm me or my family. And fuck anyone who thinks different. At least I would get the chance to try and prove self defence in a court of law. Thats better than bleeding on the pavement, or the floor of your living room, while an attacker continues with robbing you or raping a loved one. Fuck anyone who aint prepared to kill for their family or themselves.

This world is going to shit fast. Liberal Political Correctness is the reason good people are not allowed to defend themselves anymore. And its the reason why we have overcrowded prisons and wankers let out early on parol.

The world be a better place if anyone who commmitted more than 3 crimes was just exterminated. We dont put up with rats or cock roaches....we terminate them. Same with human scum. Get rid of em. Fuck overcrowded prisons. Empty them then. Its simple, round up all the serial offenders and gas the fucking lot of em. Make an example to the other shits walking the streets. When they get caught for the first time bang em away, they get caught a second time treble thier original sentence, get caught a third time....BOOOM a bullet in the back of the fucking head. Fuck em. And Fuck anyone who says different. 3 strikes your dead...simple. That way innocents dont get terminated on false evidence.


Make the world a safer place.....Kill bad people!

[47MartialMan]

Neth, he has insulted many here. The military mentality is upon you. Kill em all, let God sort em out.

[BackAgain]

Thanks for the support Nethvynn! I am with you man!

[shisoshin]

nethvynn - as ex military i have read your posts with interest.. my i ask what would be your response to some prawn claiming that 'your dead wife had sex in alleys'..

that you 'had sex with your parents'..
and 'with your little daughters'..
that you are "an ass fucking homo hiding in a closet"

unfortunateluy i am far from perfect and his taunt
at my dead wife having sex in alleys, did the trick..
if youre ok with that, we have different lines..

[BackAgain]

Shisoshin is a fraud, quackery, and a con artist. I would recommend that you do not even pay attention to him, unless you think that his magic katas and secret training with Okinawan masters are superior and the answer to the gruesome and brutal realities of the battlefield and street. He is only pretending to be interested in your career and life-experience, ultimately trying to suck you in to back up the lie he is living, and finally stabbing you in the back so he can have all credit to himself.

[Rickster]

Back stabbing knife defense techinques

[BackAgain]

What is the relevence of that statement Rick?

[Rickster]

This is a knife defense technique thread and you mentioned stabbing in the back. Lets talk about such a technique, can it truly be defended from behind?

[BackAgain]

Ok... thought that was another one of your jokes taken from my statement about shisoshin. It could be defended from, but in my opinion that is a very fucked up situation, as most people will not see it coming until too late. That is why my first line of defense is my situational awareness, e.g. not letting any one get close behind me, and always checking to make sure no one sneaks on me, and also using reflective surfaces to my advantage.

[Rickster]

Right. Ive met people who train in the "class" with too much emphasis on method. Too much of a "controlled environment" I used to take students to the outdoors and we will drill on awareness per terrain, surroundings, things to do or use.

[BackAgain]

Yeah, boot camps are always great. The more pain the better. That is what separates the real men from the pussies.

[Rickster]

There you go. I tried to bring a thread on topic, and you go off on a tangent.

[Nethvynn]

In response to Rickster making a noble attempt to get back on topic I have this to say:

If someone has already got behind you the ability to pyhsically defend depends on the distance he is behind you. Are we talking about someone approaching or are we talking about someone being behind you without you knowing.......

If you here someone approaching then you have a chance to turn and react. Your chances against an armed attacker will always be stacked no matter what you think you know or think you can do.

If it is someone who has already approached without your knowing then that person is a professional. In my experience, having done this kind of shit for real, the persons never survived.

Let me clarify for all of you; if someone has a knife to your back there is no defence. Forget the Steven Segal shit you see in movies. There is no turning and checking the hand, trapping, or applying locks. By the time you have even realised that the person is there with the knife to your back you are dead. Having had the knife slipped into your Kidney, Spine, Subclavian, Base of skull, Carotid, or under the jaw at 45 degrees directly into the brain (pinning the tongue to the roof of the mouth in the process).

If we are talking knife defence from behind, like I said, it depends on distance. It also depends on situational awareness. Someone cleverly mentioned reflective surfaces. It is true we live in an age of chrome and mirrored surfaces everywhere. And these can be used to your advantage or to check your hair.

Again the best defence to such an attack is dont be there. Situational awareness is your next best defence in terms of being able to see the attack coming and having time to turn and react. But in terms of close proximity, and probably not knowing the guy is there, then there is no defence, period.

What Rickster was saying about environment is totally relevant, and goes back to awareness training as he was saying. Preparation, Awareness Training are your best defences.... i.e. not allowing the person to get there in the first place.

In response to the gibber about insults from Shisoshin, all I can say is that your are a sad fucker for having post such crap. But to answer your limited ability to understand I will give you this explanation.....

Should a person make such comments about molesting, fucking, or doing other sick shit to my family, having been in the forces I have had much better insults.....and most of those were in fun and taking the piss. However, that has never stopped me from filling that particular persons boots with camel piss, or shoving a couple rotten eggs in the bottom of his pack....... amongst a whole host of other nasties. One time such a fellow soldier thought it funny to continue winding me up about how he was going to get down my sisters knickers......this went on for 2 weeks. I waited patiently until he was on "toilet cleaning" duty.....I waited for him to use the toilet first......mobile ones as you might imagine. I attached it to a landrover and pull the fucker over, dragged in for about a mile before unhinging and let him jog back in 47 degrees of heat covered in shit from about 150 different people......

The thing is, dont ever fuck with me....its simple, I always win.

[Just4Kicks]

thanks for the info. rikster does make attempts to get back on discussing

[Returned]

You always won so far!B) (no insult intended)

[Returned]

So nethvynn, you do agree with me that shisoshin is an idiot and liar?

[Rickster]

Nethvynn wrote:

In response to Rickster making a noble attempt to get back on topic I have this to say:

If someone has already got behind you the ability to pyhsically defend depends on the distance he is behind you. Are we talking about someone approaching or are we talking about someone being behind you without you knowing.......

If you here someone approaching then you have a chance to turn and react. Your chances against an armed attacker will always be stacked no matter what you think you know or think you can do.

If it is someone who has already approached without your knowing then that person is a professional. In my experience, having done this kind of shit for real, the persons never survived.

Let me clarify for all of you; if someone has a knife to your back there is no defence. Forget the Steven Segal shit you see in movies. There is no turning and checking the hand, trapping, or applying locks. By the time you have even realised that the person is there with the knife to your back you are dead. Having had the knife slipped into your Kidney, Spine, Subclavian, Base of skull, Carotid, or under the jaw at 45 degrees directly into the brain (pinning the tongue to the roof of the mouth in the process).

If we are talking knife defence from behind, like I said, it depends on distance. It also depends on situational awareness. Someone cleverly mentioned reflective surfaces. It is true we live in an age of chrome and mirrored surfaces everywhere. And these can be used to your advantage or to check your hair.

Again the best defence to such an attack is dont be there. Situational awareness is your next best defence in terms of being able to see the attack coming and having time to turn and react. But in terms of close proximity, and probably not knowing the guy is there, then there is no defence, period.

What Rickster was saying about environment is totally relevant, and goes back to awareness training as he was saying. Preparation, Awareness Training are your best defences.... i.e. not allowing the person to get there in the first place.

In response to the gibber about insults from Shisoshin, all I can say is that your are a sad fucker for having post such crap. But to answer your limited ability to understand I will give you this explanation.....
I completely agree and like this post.




Nethvynn wrote:

Should a person make such comments about molesting, fucking, or doing other sick shit to my family, having been in the forces I have had much better insults.....and most of those were in fun and taking the piss. However, that has never stopped me from filling that particular persons boots with camel piss, or shoving a couple rotten eggs in the bottom of his pack....... amongst a whole host of other nasties. One time such a fellow soldier thought it funny to continue winding me up about how he was going to get down my sisters knickers......this went on for 2 weeks. I waited patiently until he was on "toilet cleaning" duty.....I waited for him to use the toilet first......mobile ones as you might imagine. I attached it to a landrover and pull the fucker over, dragged in for about a mile before unhinging and let him jog back in 47 degrees of heat covered in shit from about 150 different people......

The thing is, dont ever fuck with me....its simple, I always win.
See how frustrating it is? In this case they are internet insults and you cant do anything about it.

[Rickster]

Returned wrote:

So nethvynn, you do agree with me that shisoshin is an idiot and liar?
This post should have been a PM. You not only call him a liar and insult him, but you try to get some else to take your side against another here on open forum. The degree of insults you had made will have others think you're the idiot.<br><br>Post edited by: Rickster, at: 2009/06/20 02:26

[HardFacts]

It should be common knowledge that shisoshin is a liar and wank to all on this forum who have any actual intelligence. I don't NEED anyone on my side, I just want to clarify the facts to everyone. I have had a lot of interaction with this POS especially by PM as well as on the forums and instant messaging, so I know how his strategy works. He just tries to overwhelm newbies with his long difficult esoteric speeches, trying to get their admiration and become their hero, which he has already done with a certain young and gullible female member who I will not name here. He relishes in being considered a multi-dan sensei with mystical powers, literally hypnotizing his victims into his pathetic spell. What is his purpose in all of this? The satisfaction and bolstering of his already over-inflated ego through the control of these poor souls misled by his teaching. Whenever I attempt to expose his weak theories, which have no basis in reality, he treats me as an ignorant fool using the fact that I opted ouyt of Karate because I realized it was a waste of my time, energy, and talent, as well as of little use for actual fighting and killing. I believe I am on the same wavelength as you Nethvynn on many subjects, and I can say that you are probably one of the most knowledgeable members on this site, the complete opposite of this know-nothing useless crap artist and hustler who has no real-life experience or simulations thereof.

[shisoshin]

nethvynn - the 'gibber' was extention of stated interest
in some of your views.. sorry to bother you with it..

[HardFacts]

Shisoshin you know nothing of real knife defense so since you have no relevant knowledge get out and quit trying to fool Nethvynn, it just won't work.

[Rickster]

What does shisoshin "lie" about? If I recall correctly, it was you who first insulted him. And it is you who is contnued to be banned. I may not agree with some issues from others, but I do not look to personally insult them.

[HardFacts]

I expose his lies, many of which he believes to be true, and in doing so, it insults him...

[Rickster]

No. You personaly insulted him. This is not the same as giving opposition of opinion. I can't agree with you on this one.

[HardFacts]

I may have insulted him through exposing him, but it is what it is...

[Rickster]

You did not insult by exposing, you personally insulted. BIG difference.

[HardFacts]

I perhaps used a bit of both which can be inevitable due to his sketchy character.

[Rickster]

A littler bit of both does no justice for what you think is your cause.

Speaking of knife defense/attacks, has ANYONE heard of the stab-proof knife in a attempt to stop knife crimes?

[HardFacts]

Give details please...

[Rickster]

If you would stick to the facts about why you disagree with him, instead of insulting him, per name calling and profanity, then your cause would be much better.

[HardFacts]

Well the facts have repeated often...

[Rickster]

So have the personal insults and your banning.

What about the stab-proof knife?<br><br>Post edited by: Rickster, at: 2009/06/20 03:34

[HardFacts]

I would like to have more details about it.

[Rickster]

HardFacts wrote:

I would like to have more details about it.
Go find it.

[Nethvynn]

Ignoring the banter on insults and such....its meaningless.

I do agree with Rickster though, keep posts relevant to the conversation, matters of opinion should not be considered insult. We are all free to chose what we believe, despite right or wrongs in terms of subjective opinion.

Going back to what was said about giving up Karate as it was useless, and not really applicable to real life fighting. I would like to comment that this is only really true of those schools who perpetuate it as a sport, and by those who do not really understand Kata, or its actual applications.

To kind of quote Bruce Lee; there is a certain truth that regimented systems do not lend well to the spontaneity of a fight and the myriad of forms that violence can show itself. However, Martial Systems teach you to kill. (not saying its the only reason to learn them, but quintessentially it is what they are for in the battlefield). I personally believe that Karate holds a lot of information. The Kata teach striking, both kick and punch, methods of trapping, grappling, sticky hands (Muchimi to use the Japanese term, the U is pronounced as a "oo") and of course some ground work and weapons. Going back to its origins the systems were complete systems and incoporated most of what would be relevant in a fight. The stylised systems we see today, the pointless gradings etc did not exist in Japan. They are something that was used for the Americans who liked to see point of progress in their training, and the systems were taught to the Americans without actually showing them the more profound ideas within the Kata.

I feel that it is down to the individual to research the knowledge base that is hidden in Kata, the use of pressure points, vital points etc are all potent. It is also down to the individual to step away from his teacher, step away from the systemised ideas and to find the flow and spontaneity with the myriad of methods learned.

I studied Kempo in my younger days, along with various other forms of Karate, and still to this day I use the knowledge I have from these systems. I have obviously combined these with methods and ideas from a whole range of systems, Wingchung, Boxing, JuJitsu, AikiJutsu, Aikido, Silat, Escrima, Krav Maga, Systema but to name a few, including your mixed MA and Val Tudo. You can add on top of that training I received in the forces, and the skills I learned while on active duty where much of this was tested.

The principle being that I do not think any one system is more complete than any other. However I do think that some systems have started to return to how things would have been taught, for example, take a Roman Gladiator school.... the idea of training with live weapons, realistic scenarios, pressure testing everything, and focussing on real life combat in terms of life and death scenarios. Systems like Krav Maga for example, or Keysi Fighting, I feel are attempts to bring back the potency of real life combat training.

However, to be honest, take things like Krav Maga and Systems, both are full of other systems, most of which I have mentioned. It is really the method of teaching that has changed from the Americanised and diluted forms of Karate.

For people wishing to persue the idea of being a complete warrior, to be a total all round fighter you have to be prepared to take what you know and constantly test, strain away, and retest what you know. Practical real life experience, be it in the forces, doing Law enforcement work or security work, will pressure test what you know, and will give you an idea of how to train and cope with the adrenaline dump, situational awareness skills etc etc, most of which we have discussed before. All of it is relevant.

The persuit of knowledge is really what we are talking about. Knowledge, and I dont just mean in terms of what you glean from a text, but learned life experience and application as well, is the ultimate weapon in self defence. You can add to that wisdom which comes with experience.....experience again can be subjective and does not necessarily equate to age or physical maturity.

Finally, truth is subjective to the individual. Truth within your training can only be uncovered by you. Sure you can seek out teachers and instructors and like minded individuals, but it is only through your own relentless persuit of knowledge that you can hope to find the strengths and weaknesses of your own character and what it is that makes you a warrior.

Peace to all. :woohoo: :silly:

[Nethvynn]

In response to the Stab Proof Knife: It was invented by industrial designer John Cornock, however his comments: "It can never be a totally safe knife, but the idea is you can’t inflict a fatal wound," he said. "Nobody could just grab one out of the kitchen drawer and kill someone."........I feel this is inaccurate. If it can slice it can inflict a fatal wound. Personally I dont like using blunt or any knife that is considered a saftey knife, simply because they dont cut well and are more likely to make you force the cut and therefore injure yourself. It might reduce some of the fatalities from stabbings, but people will just adapt and find new methods and easier weapons to carry and use. Nothing will change.

Personally i think its just a money spinning idea feeding off the current knife crime epidemic that is so emphatically addressed in the media.

[Rickster]

Nethvynn wrote:

Ignoring the banter on insults and such....its meaningless.

I do agree with Rickster though, keep posts relevant to the conversation, matters of opinion should not be considered insult. We are all free to chose what we believe, despite right or wrongs in terms of subjective opinion.

Going back to what was said about giving up Karate as it was useless, and not really applicable to real life fighting. I would like to comment that this is only really true of those schools who perpetuate it as a sport, and by those who do not really understand Kata, or its actual applications.

To kind of quote Bruce Lee; there is a certain truth that regimented systems do not lend well to the spontaneity of a fight and the myriad of forms that violence can show itself. However, Martial Systems teach you to kill. (not saying its the only reason to learn them, but quintessentially it is what they are for in the battlefield). I personally believe that Karate holds a lot of information. The Kata teach striking, both kick and punch, methods of trapping, grappling, sticky hands (Muchimi to use the Japanese term, the U is pronounced as a "oo") and of course some ground work and weapons. Going back to its origins the systems were complete systems and incoporated most of what would be relevant in a fight. The stylised systems we see today, the pointless gradings etc did not exist in Japan. They are something that was used for the Americans who liked to see point of progress in their training, and the systems were taught to the Americans without actually showing them the more profound ideas within the Kata.

I feel that it is down to the individual to research the knowledge base that is hidden in Kata, the use of pressure points, vital points etc are all potent. It is also down to the individual to step away from his teacher, step away from the systemised ideas and to find the flow and spontaneity with the myriad of methods learned.

I studied Kempo in my younger days, along with various other forms of Karate, and still to this day I use the knowledge I have from these systems. I have obviously combined these with methods and ideas from a whole range of systems, Wingchung, Boxing, JuJitsu, AikiJutsu, Aikido, Silat, Escrima, Krav Maga, Systema but to name a few, including your mixed MA and Val Tudo. You can add on top of that training I received in the forces, and the skills I learned while on active duty where much of this was tested.

The principle being that I do not think any one system is more complete than any other. However I do think that some systems have started to return to how things would have been taught, for example, take a Roman Gladiator school.... the idea of training with live weapons, realistic scenarios, pressure testing everything, and focussing on real life combat in terms of life and death scenarios. Systems like Krav Maga for example, or Keysi Fighting, I feel are attempts to bring back the potency of real life combat training.

However, to be honest, take things like Krav Maga and Systems, both are full of other systems, most of which I have mentioned. It is really the method of teaching that has changed from the Americanised and diluted forms of Karate.

For people wishing to persue the idea of being a complete warrior, to be a total all round fighter you have to be prepared to take what you know and constantly test, strain away, and retest what you know. Practical real life experience, be it in the forces, doing Law enforcement work or security work, will pressure test what you know, and will give you an idea of how to train and cope with the adrenaline dump, situational awareness skills etc etc, most of which we have discussed before. All of it is relevant.

The persuit of knowledge is really what we are talking about. Knowledge, and I dont just mean in terms of what you glean from a text, but learned life experience and application as well, is the ultimate weapon in self defence. You can add to that wisdom which comes with experience.....experience again can be subjective and does not necessarily equate to age or physical maturity.

Finally, truth is subjective to the individual. Truth within your training can only be uncovered by you. Sure you can seek out teachers and instructors and like minded individuals, but it is only through your own relentless persuit of knowledge that you can hope to find the strengths and weaknesses of your own character and what it is that makes you a warrior.

Peace to all. :woohoo: :silly:

I AGREE 1000 PERCENT!

VERY, VERY, WELL SAID. KUDOS! <br><br>Post edited by: Rickster, at: 2009/06/20 16:51

[Rickster]

Nethvynn wrote:

In response to the Stab Proof Knife: It was invented by industrial designer John Cornock, however his comments: "It can never be a totally safe knife, but the idea is you can’t inflict a fatal wound," he said. "Nobody could just grab one out of the kitchen drawer and kill someone."........I feel this is inaccurate. If it can slice it can inflict a fatal wound. Personally I dont like using blunt or any knife that is considered a saftey knife, simply because they dont cut well and are more likely to make you force the cut and therefore injure yourself. It might reduce some of the fatalities from stabbings, but people will just adapt and find new methods and easier weapons to carry and use. Nothing will change.

Personally i think its just a money spinning idea feeding off the current knife crime epidemic that is so emphatically addressed in the media.
Yep. I knew this and share the same view. (The world is getting too PC and cannot understand people are going to find ways to kill each other anyway. It isnt the weapon, but the person. Getting rid of guns and knives, or making them less dangerous, wont get rid of people killing each other.)

I was hoping to spark a curiousity and motivate others on this knife thread to go search and post their views as well.<br><br>Post edited by: Rickster, at: 2009/06/22 04:17

[HardFacts]

I agree with you Nethvynn again. But instead of looking in Katas for information, I prefer to look at various tools of the human body and find the most effective ways to use them. I tend to shy away from any pattern-based system and any system that has ridiculous hands-at-hips striking, unrealistic kicks, flowery hand movements, and rigid fixed positions.This is what that ignorant fraud shisoshin promotes, and what I am fighting against.

[shisoshin]

neth is right, all karate is not the same, or all kata,
and nothing can be appreciated based on one years
training in chitoryu, as the sex trolls experience..

this prawn would have no idea what shisoshin promotes,
as his every-second pronouncement demonstrates..
okinawagujuryu my ryu is headed by higaonna morio sensei judan hanshi who, while a young sandan at the
yoyogi dojo in tokyo was described by don draeger
to a group of americans seeking the best karate instruction as; 'the most dangerous man in japan
in a real fight'..

before going to japan, okigoju curriculum had no
point sparring or 'sport karate'..
rest assured that this karate's strikes and kicks
are not "unrealistic" as the prawn above claims
based on his year as a failed novice karateka
nor are hand movements "flowery"..
a basic fighting strategy is taisabaki which means
'body shifting' and is not, "rigid fixed positions"!

but dont believe me, and my miserable 30 yrs training
and certainly dont believe the sex troll and his
one year of novice chitoryu.. today these things
can be verified easily..

our kicks ["unrealistic"] include all the kicks, but
specialise in kansetsugeri - knee joint kick..
also kingeri 'treasure' or testicles kick..

"rigid fixed positions" are used in various forms of training from physiotherapy to yoga as part of joint alignment and range restting, rational positions..
the sex troll is thinking back to his novice
karate experience where the novice kata is made
of moving basics, which involve alignment etc..
[imagine you have a bent bond say and use a rigid caste as part of straightening it.. doesnt mean that
the caste is then worn for life] analogy..

there are many, good, reasons for basic alignments
especially linking shoulders with hips etc, but
just check out lyoto machida, karateka and ufc
lightheavyweight champion [not my ryu] since last
week, to make the point, see if machida strikes with
"ridiculous hands-at-hips"..

again, this is the view of the failed novice..
who, not understanding things, assumes wrongly and
simplistically their reasons and functions in an
overall cocnditioning and skills suite development
that takes many, years, not, just, one..

i couldnt give a rats arse what that prawn thinks of me, in fact i take it as a sort of compliment, that
a multiply banned sex troll who thinks he trains with bruce lee in the spirit realm, and openly admits his
desire for having sex with 9yr old girls, thinks,
i am a fraud..

but for those who want to really know, and not merely
swallow the assumptions of a failed novice karateka
- as to what karate is and isnt - know that nethvynn
is right, that all karate is not the same, that there is that with neck breaks and that with tea breaks..

to each his own, whats ones meats anothers poison..
just dont confuse the two..

[Nethvynn]

Right, first things first. Insult is pointless and shows only one thing....childishness.

Secondly I do agree with some of what Shishoshin says. There are reasons for the exercises, forms and Kata. Like I said before it was an Americanisation of Karate that brought to light the inadequacy of trying to fight from Kata. Kata was never meant to be used to fight. It was a training method which promoted the alignement of meridians in the body for the correct flow of Chi/Ki (whichever you prefer). It was also as Shishoshin says for the structural correction of the body, tendon and ligament alignement, strengthening these tissues as well as the muscle interface with the nervous system. Not only that as I said before, the method of Kata was to impart the deadly knowledge to the student that he would need at higher levels without really revealing to him what he was doing until he was taught the deeper applications.

However, with this said, I do not see the need any more for out moded martial systems that take 30 years to comprehend and understand. Nor do I see the need for any system that will hide its knowledge from its students until they have stood in horse stance for 10 long years. This does not make for effective self defence, or effective learning. It is all well and fine for those who have the time to practice in these old fashioned ways, but in reality they are not practical today and remain what they are, archaic.

However within the archaic we find hidden knowledge and ideas that can still be used today. Take those ideas and unhinge them from the protocol and entrenched, and codified modes of practice that we see in our Martial Art forefathers, put them into a dynamic and realistic system for the modern day and we can be teaching people who want to know about self defence in weeks rather than decades.

At the end of the day, we are not talking about reaching perfection here. We are not talking about becoming the next Guru of the century. We are talking about practical real life self defence that will take the ordinary person, someone with no skill at all, and in 10 to 12 weeks give them the basis from which they can learn to defend themselves effectively.

I have taught plenty of people, taken them through a complete cycle of core techniques and ideas in a couple of months, most of these come from many of the so called stylised systems, but when unhinged from dreary Martial Art protocol, they become what they were meant to be, deadly techniques.

So in a way I agree with both of you. Everyone has their own path to follow, and my advice to anyone studying is not to get bogged down in any one system, dont follow any one persons advice. Learning is done through living things for yourself. Be open to change. Be open to learning new things. Test what you know. Strip away what dont work for you. Add to that which does.

I practice Yoga everyday, have done for 27 years. I have practiced Martial Arts since I was 6 doing Judo. I am now 42. Soon to be 43. I have trained in just about every single martial system you can name. I have been in real battle. I have taken life with what I know. The thing is nothing I know is complete. I am still learning, still changing what I do and how I train. I see new things everyday. Some is bollocks, some is not. I adapt, I grow and I change.


But the one thing I totally disagree on here is the mindless bullshit insults. Mega YAWN on this. Like Rickster said it would be nice to see opinion debated, ideas put forward and forget the ignorant bitching like schoolgirls.


By the way Rickster I totally agree with what you said about the whole political correctness thing. ITs damn frustrating. And like you say you could remove every known weapon to man but they would still pick up sticks or stones or use thier bare hands.....it would not change things until mankinds makes an evolutionary jump in his general psychology.

[PrideAndJoy]

I again agree with you on somethings, but I have difficulty believing in Katas being able to line up meridians and channel the flow of chi. These were all made up by idiots, and if it were so than how come the sme Kata is done differently in different ryu's if the human body is the same? I say bullshit and wasted training time... All those killing techniques can be learned without going through this rubble of outdated mythology. Seriously, I have heard better ideas from you, Nethvynn, and this quite frankly disappoints me. You see, I look at things from the point of physiology and psychology and actual research that has been done into fighting, and like you I always am learning new tricks and refining my methods, but big difference, I couldn't give two dicks about some ancient ineffective and outdated style anymore than an ancient musket from the 17th century. As far as the insults go, I am trying to keep them to the occasional sware word, but lo and behold shisoshin repeating the same accusations for the zillionth time!!!

[shisoshin]

all martial artists should be practicing yoga..
another "ineffective outdated mythology"
to those who think they know..

[PrideAndJoy]

Big difference, yoga is for flexibility, now shut up and go back to your sex idols.

[47MartialMan]

Ahhh. Is someone sad because neth did not take his side this time? Do you need a cookie or hug?<br><br>Post edited by: 47MartialMan, at: 2009/06/22 19:46

[PrideAndJoy]

I don't need any cookie or hug from a man... I have my girl, that I incidentally picked up on this forum.

[47MartialMan]

You are right, what you need is psychiatric help. :)

[PrideAndJoy]

No I don't, you do!

[47MartialMan]

PrideAndJoy wrote:

I don't need any cookie or hug from a man... I have my girl, that I incidentally picked up on this forum.

I asked if you needed a cookie or a hug, I wasn't going to be the one to give it to you.

[47MartialMan]

PrideAndJoy wrote:

No I don't, you do!
The majority voting is in, you need help PrideandBoy

[PrideAndJoy]

Show me the vote results... and it is Pride And Joy. I love that song!

[47MartialMan]

Its PrideAndBoy because sometimes you dont behave mature enough. The votes are in.<br><br>Post edited by: 47MartialMan, at: 2009/06/22 19:56

[PrideAndJoy]

Not true.

[47MartialMan]

PrideAndJoy wrote:

Not true.
Its true. Sometimes you dont behave mature enough.

[Just4Kicks]

i agree

[PrideAndJoy]

You misjudge my intentions.

[Nethvynn]

You sound very bitter and frustrated to be honest. You did not read my posts very well, and obviously only took interest in the parts that offended you the most for you to respond with such vehemence.

Each to his own. I have studied quite happily from just about every source known to man when it comes to Martial Systems. I have never really been disappointed in the knowledge that I have gleaned from each one. There is stuff from each one I have put in the bin. But I have always learned something fresh.

As a result of the last load of banter I will be withdrawing from the forum now. Frankly I have lost interest in the aimless bickering that has come from a few people here.

Unable to make a point you have resorted to mindless gibber and futile attempts to throw insult in one direction or another.

For me personally, I know what I know, I know it works, because I have used it for what it is for. I doubt many of you have ever had to go the whole way and snap another mans neck, or cut a throat....until you have you can keep your anal opinions about what works and what dont to yourself.

As to Rickster, nice chatting to ya in here. I think you got your head screwed on mate.

Chow

[PrideAndJoy]

Sorry abou to hear that, Nethvynn. I actually believe I am on a similar wavelength as you. You see, there are some conflicts on this forum that have never been resolved. I agree more with you than I don't.

[shisoshin]

incidentally folks, as if a rational member commented,
yoga, is far, far more than mere "flexibility"..!

it is yoga meditation, particularly the dharana and dhyana phases which taken thru cultures and languages
resulted in japanese 'Zen meditation'..

and of course the various cultural entities which draw
on zen and zen meditation, which support a library
but include japanese bushido and martial arts..

to say that yoga is just flexibility is like saying that a car is just four wheels and a metal box..
yogic breathing and breath training 'pranayama' is a
refined skill in itself and tho not the same is related also to certain martial arts breath control..

progressive joint range resetting is fundamental to yoga as it is in a limited sense to kicking skills
and general joint range of movement in martial arts..

yoga also contains strengthening elements which extend thru the entire body, practicing what seem to the ignorant as ridiculous positions for the purpose of loading muscles which most people never use let alone strengthen..
just, for example, try a one legged squat, woth other lege extended horizontal, on the ball of one foot..
try sitting in comfortable cross legged position
hands on floor beside hips, then lift the legs up
into the air raising the body off the ground..
just the headstands/handstands challenge normal strength, before getting to the difficult versions..

this is not really difficult for a genuine martial artist and is a fairly basic yoga position, but see
how you go; feet together, forward bend, arms down,
raise head and torso arms extended, balance that
by raising one leg to the rear.. stand on one leg
with one leg horizontal, torso/head/arms horizontal
and hold that position, for as long as you can..

if its too hard, start with both hands on a bench or table, lift one leg back/up [or kick backwards]
keep back straight, legs straight, lift hands one at a time a little.. pilates uses that variation with
small leg movements round and round etc as a glute
exercise together with back strength and balance..

'feel good' yoga classes are fine and worthwhile,
but dont fall into the error of thinking thats all
there is to yoga..

every genuine martial artist from the most traditional to the nethvynn combat specialist
should be doing real yoga..

[PrideAndJoy]

I do some yoga.

[Rickster]

Nethvynn wrote:

You sound very bitter and frustrated to be honest. You did not read my posts very well, and obviously only took interest in the parts that offended you the most for you to respond with such vehemence.

Each to his own. I have studied quite happily from just about every source known to man when it comes to Martial Systems. I have never really been disappointed in the knowledge that I have gleaned from each one. There is stuff from each one I have put in the bin. But I have always learned something fresh.

As a result of the last load of banter I will be withdrawing from the forum now. Frankly I have lost interest in the aimless bickering that has come from a few people here.

Unable to make a point you have resorted to mindless gibber and futile attempts to throw insult in one direction or another.

For me personally, I know what I know, I know it works, because I have used it for what it is for. I doubt many of you have ever had to go the whole way and snap another mans neck, or cut a throat....until you have you can keep your anal opinions about what works and what dont to yourself.

As to Rickster, nice chatting to ya in here. I think you got your head screwed on mate.

Chow

Sad to see you leave. Your posts were very interesting and to the point. Although I had a little disagreement (as well as some others) on your posts, or anyone elses', you kept to your convictions and gave detailed replies without speculation.

In other words, I hate to see you leave, and I was trying to help the forum by PMing the admins. To which, they still haven't given me desired results although I know they have other priorities.

Please, and I mean this with all sincerity, pop in once in awhile and browse. If you see something, make a small post. If you see changes, make more posts.

Take Care.<br><br>Post edited by: Rickster, at: 2009/06/25 05:31

[PrideAndJoy]

Yeah, keep posting brother, we don't always have to agree on everything do we?

[Rickster]

PrideAndJoy wrote:

Yeah, keep posting brother, we don't always have to agree on everything do we?
I could almost go out on a limb and state that you could be one cause of a few, why he is leaving.

[ColdShot]

Shisoshin has more to do with it than I do.